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Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Strata and Fossils. Sorted by magic by gods that want to deceive people. Because if they wanted to provide evidence of a fantastic flying flood fantasy they wouldn't sort radioactive isotopes in matching layers with species of trilobites (or foraminifera or diatoms). It has to be god-magic because water doesn't have a brain or means to sense things. Nor does it get suddenly endowed with such powers during a flood except by god-magic. Pick up whole layers of living fully developed marine ecosystems, transport them undamaged hundreds of miles to pile them up where a mountain will be pushed up by flood water ... it's all god-magic. How silly to think that the deposits occur over long periods of time with the radioactive isotopes being deposited gradually year after year after year, as the evolving foraminifera and the evolving diatoms die and their shells deposit on the ocean floor year after year after year, as the evolving trilobites lived and died on the ocean floor year after year after year. Curious how that so thoroughly explains the sorting of the radioactive isotopes and the sorting of different evolved species of foraminifera, diatoms, trilobites, etc, into matching layers worldwide. Without effort. Without god-magic. Without changing the laws of physics or the behavior of water. without having to make stuff up. Why would anyone think such a silly thing when it is much more rational to make up wild scenarios, that keep getting wilder the more things are brought up that need to be explained by the god-magic while pretending that it is scientific. How silly. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
First, beach sand gets deposited on a slight upslope. ... At high tide during storms. It can also be eroded. I have watched both at my parents house. I always wanted to mount a camera to show the shore at low tide to show the changing nature of an active shoreline. You can also get some sand blown up from the shore at low tide when it is dry. This is what builds dunes, not water, over long expanses of time. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And again the topic is Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
Sediments running uphill are not the topic. Fossils of trilobites sorted with radioactive isotopes in thick layers with different trilobite species and different isotopes, ... Layers of fully developed marine ecosystems where organisms grow on the detritus of previous generations and the gradual accumulation of silts, ... including radioactive silts, ... Mountains uplifted with meters and meters and meters deep layers of marine growth, volumes of growth that would cover the earth several times over if they all lived spread out over the earth at the same time ... Brachiopods and other marine growth showing the duration of living organisms for each layer were in the decades ... It all adds up to an old earth ... Lacking is any mixing of species and isotope sediments that would occur with a flying flood fantasy that terraforms the earth to current day appearance in less than a thousand years. Unless you invoke magic. The sorted fossilsThe sorted isotopes matching the sorted fossils everywhere on earth The iridium layer all over the earth with fossils below never appearing above it and fossils above it never appearing below it. Only by old age and uniform laws of physics and biology ... or magic. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
And again the topic is Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
Sediments running uphill are not the topic. Fossils of trilobites sorted with radioactive isotopes in thick layers with different trilobite species and different isotopes, ... Layers of fully developed marine ecosystems where organisms grow on the detritus of previous generations and the gradual accumulation of silts, ... including radioactive silts, ... Mountains uplifted with meters and meters and meters deep layers of marine growth, volumes of growth that would cover the earth several times over if they all lived spread out over the earth at the same time ... Brachiopods and other marine growth showing the duration of living organisms for each layer were in the decades ... It all adds up to an old earth ... Lacking is any mixing of species and isotope sediments that would occur with a flying flood fantasy that terraforms the earth to current day appearance in less than a thousand years. Unless you invoke magic. The sorted fossilsThe sorted isotopes matching the sorted fossils everywhere on earth The iridium layer all over the earth with fossils below never appearing above it and fossils above it never appearing below it. Only by old age and uniform laws of physics and biology ... or magic.
The "real world evidence" is completely misinterpreted by orthodox Science. In the end it will be found to be consistent with God's word. In other words, magic. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Faith in Message 1085: The sorting is a secondary issue when the trilobites climb the supposed Geological Time Scale for hundreds of millions of years without changing any more than we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time, same as the coelecanths, while evo theory has reptiles evolving into mammals in a time period or two. The whole thing is a big fat sham. Proving you have no idea what you are talking about.
quote: * - (adapted to table format with links on names instead of pictures)
... without changing any more than we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time ... Wrong. Note: "... ten orders, over 150 families, about 5,000 genera, and over 20,000 described species. New species of trilobites are unearthed and described every year. This makes trilobites the single most diverse class of extinct organisms, and within the generalized body plan of trilobites there was a great deal of diversity of size and form. ..." Some were bottom feeders others were swimmers. Some ate vegetation, some preyed on other organisms.
... same as the coelecanths, ... And wrong again.
quote: While not as numerous and diverse as the trilobites, they still show "more we see any creature microevolving in a few observable years in current time." Ignorance is no refutation of the real world facts. Enjoy (copied from The TRVE history of the Flood... Message 1090)by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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However, other people learn a lot from your posts. I've basically learned all of my biology and paleontology and genetics and and and from people of your "kind". Please keep up the good work. And what I know about geology and genetics I learned here. It is a learning environment ... for those who want to learn. Continuing with the trilobites we can look at when they became extinct:
quote: So now, adding to the problems of fossil sorting for the creationists is the Horseshoe crab (Coelacanths are not the only "living fossils" in the sea). Horseshoe crabs have been around for 450 million years, and they are the blue bloods of the ocean ... because their blood is literally blue.
quote: Now the trilobites became extinct nearly 300 million years ago, so there was a period of overlap with the Horseshoe crab of about 120 million years. So combining trilobites and horseshoe crabs we have a continuous span of marine life from the lower (early) cambrian to the present day. Each species is associated with specific time periods that are defined by both relative dating (the law of superposition) and by absolute radiometric dating. Early horse shoe crabs can be found in the same strata as late trilobites, but early trilobites are not found in the same strata as late Horseshoe crabs, and the strata they are found in are always associated with specific radioactive isotope levels that follow the pattern of the relative dating of the layers. There was no mixing of the layers. Based on the levels of radioactive isotopes extant in the layers, each layer took centuries to form. There was no sorting of the fossils. They all lived and died during the periods that the layers were growing by the gradual accretion of sediments and the detritus of marine life on the ocean floors. The fossils show it by the way they are found in the sediments along with evidence of mature marine living ecosystems, and the radioactive isotopes show it by the different levels they are measured at for the different layers. The obvious conclusion is that none of these layers were disturbed, or in any way affected, by a purported global flood. When these fossils are found on mountains, it is because of tectonic activity pushing plates together and forcing one plate over another, piling it up ... in a process that is observed to day in the continued rise of the alps and the rocky mountains. Floods don't move tectonic plates and floods don't create mountains -- they erode them. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Of course "floods" don't do either of those things, what a silly straw man. But THE Flood built sedimentary strata which was full of dead things which became fossils, ... And this magic carpet flying flood carried whole ecosystems of living marine life complete with built-up accretion of silts and detritus of previous generations used as substrates to grow on, carried them intact with all the evidence of a continuous flow of lives one on top of the other, undisturbed ... brachiopods with their fragile stems still attached to shells of previous brachiopods ...
... and some mountains are strata that was tectonically pushed up into mountains. ... ... with those piled up intact accumulation of mature marine ecosystems that showed generations of growth on top of generations of growth ... sorted by organism/species type, sorted by radioactive isotope levels ...
... And I happen to think this all occurred at the end of Noah's Flood in a great tectonic cataclysm that had something to do with causing the Flood water to recede. ... ... that you totally made up out of thin air like all your other "explanations" and "proofs" ...
... It also caused the separation of the continents and other interesting phenomena. Not the Flood, but geological processes connected with it. ... oops, there you go making the flood move those tectonic plates, and presumably cooling them from overheating due to the massive friction fast-track movement makes ... with the animals already off the ark so they can be sorted onto the appropriate continents to sort their fossils geographically as they rapidly evolved before they got buried by the sediments ...
Horseshoe crabs, some of them anyway, do look quite a bit like trilobites. ... Gosh, they are related!
... And I guess I'd think of them as I think of the other "living fossils" as evidence against the ToE because the changes they show are just variations within the Kind over hundreds of millions of years. ... Well you're "evidence against the ToE" is a straw man because you don't understand why continual variation and adaptation actually shows evolution in an ecological environment that doesn't change that much. You only think so because that fits your beliefs, while you ignore the details of the evidence ... as always. Organisms don't need to evolve significantly if they are well suited to their ecology or are adaptable to different ecologies, but they still evolve via little changes and permutations. It's the little details that show continual evolution. The ones living today are also completely different species from the ones in the fossil record, and are only small handful of species compared to the large diversified numbers of species in the fossil record
... Funny how the creatures that don't show such a lengthy fossil history, where there is no evidence of evolution that is, ... ... if you ignore the details that do show a lengthy fossil history and plenty of evidence of evolution ...
... are assumed to have evolved from one thing into another, such as reptiles into mammals, ... Where curiously we do have fossils of transitions, including the clear transition from reptile jaw made from three bones through intermediate forms of therapsids (Probainognathus and Diarthrognathus for example) with two jaw hinges and then to a mammal jaw made of one of the reptile jaw bones while the other two are adapted to form part of the mammal ear -- the same bones the reptiles used while part of their jaw to transmit sounds to their single ear bone that makes up the third bone in the mammal ear -- and at the same time with teeth becoming differentiated into typical mammal teeth from the typical reptilian teeth. But this is not relevant to this thread about Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits, so it should be discussed on another thread.
... , whereas when there is actual evidence from one time period to another of the changes to a creature -- like trilobites, horseshoe crabs and coelecanths, the differences are obviously the expected changes within the Kind. You mean within nested clades, as expected by the theory of evolution, taking into account their ecological conditions. Species after species, the ones today are not the ones from yesterday, they are descendants, evolved descendants, and they are proof that there was no flood, or at least that they were completely unaffected by the magic flying carpet flood and massive terraforming activity you use to attempt to explain the geology. Everything arranged and magically sorted to imitate old age intentionally ... the big joke of the joker god/s ... And you still cannot explain the radioactive isotope levels sorted with the fossils as if they were the remnants of long ages of decay, magically sorted by the magic carpet flying flood. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... adding up to hundreds of millions of years, without changing to any degree that would suggest something other than a trilobite, coelacanth or horseshoe crab, ... Again with the typical ignorant creationist thinking. Trilobite is not a species, it is a subphylum with 10 orders and over 20,000 known species divided into different genera and families in those orders. There are no living trilobites. Coelacanth is not a species, it is an order with 7 families and many genera:
quote: And Horseshoe crab is not a species.
quote: Yessiree that image looks just exactly like the modern horseshoe crab ... hardly changed at all. Yep there are only a few "living fossils" so evolution must be false if it doesn't force species to evolve more ...
quote: All of these have a close appearing ancestor that can be found in the fossil record. They persist because they are successful at surviving and breeding, not because evolution is not happening. Of course that is only a small cross-section of the full diversity of life on earth ... and some of these have given birth to other lineages that aren't listed. ie -- how are trilobites and horseshoe crabs related if there was no evolution?
I mean even you ought to stop and ponder how, when we have actual evidence we see no evolution whatever, just the usual changes within the Calling them a species is a lie when you are talking about orders ... so I changed it to typical creationist undefined {kind} for you. And which scientists call evolution, gradual evolution from generation to generation with all offspring being members of the parent population, forming a clade when they have daughter populations ... as has occurred for trilobites, coelacanths and horseshoe crabs ...
... while when there is no evidence at all, great leaps are made to assume evolution between dramatically different creatures, such as from reptiles to mammals. And we can start another thread to deal with this falsehood or take it to Evolution of the Mammalian Jaw. It isn't relevant to this thread, unlike trilobites (and other marine growth like coelacanths and horseshoe crabs). Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : Evolution of the Mammalian Jaw Edited by RAZD, : iby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It's clearly a trilobite, every one of them, all derived from the same genome, no matter what complicated system of classification you lay on them. Such an authority you are.
Message 493: I just explained it. Weird you can't follow what I said. (But there are no living trilobites) But you just said all horseshoe crabs are trilobites and there are 4 living species of horseshoe crab. A real authority would have known this. Now they are related, but I don't know how closely.
quote: Certainly the Cyamocephalus loganensis looks like it could be part modern horseshoe crab and part trilobite, as one would expect from a transitional stage, and it's about 2" long, but without knowing the underside and body bits it would be a little presumptuous to go on just a sketch of the top view. Oh wait, that is what you just did ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Why has the horseshoe crab survived so long with so little change -- a common YECKIE question ...
quote: Capable of living in many different ecologies is a big advantage to survival, and it doesn't put pressure on the species to select for new traits in order to use those ecologies. Now I expect you are going to say that eurypterids are also trilobites ...
quote: Horseshoe crabs are closer to sea scorpions than trilobites as they are both members of the Subphylum Chelicerata while trilobites are in the Subphylum Trilobitomorpha.
... no matter what complicated system of classification you lay on them. Curiously I'll take my information from scientists that actually study the critters in detail over an opinionated arm-chair creationist making wide-ass guesses based on minimal information, a person with no actual education in the field. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Sometimes I almost wish I could see things your way just so we wouldn't always be in a fight to the death, but I really just don't. I don't see anything in that illustration that requires the standard time line. Of course you don't see it, because you would have to admit that you are wrong if you could see it. Just like horseshoe crabs and trilobites have to be all one species or you would have to admit that you are wrong. That is your firmly held beliefs/opinions/fantasies interfering with your ability to understand. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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That reminds me, I did not say horseshoe crabs were the same species as trilobites, I said they look similar, that's all. See Message 484 where I say So I looked
quote: Seems like I did misunderstand you. So now you don't have any relationship between them, and we still have the same sorting problem: Everything arranged and magically sorted to imitate old age intentionally ... the big joke of the joker god/s ...
And you still cannot explain the radioactive isotope levels sorted with the fossils as if they were the remnants of long ages of decay, magically sorted by the magic carpet flying flood. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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That's the whole point. They are not scattered randomly all over the world. Perhaps you misunderstood. I didn't mean individual trilobites, I meant species as a group, not found close to each other. The individual trilobites of the species as a group are found all over the world, the two different species edge is talking about are never found in the same layers, and they are always found with the older species below the younger species, as we expect from the relative dating of the layers and the evolution of newer species from the older species. The radioactive isotopes are also found in the same concentrations for the layers the trilobites from each species are found in and the lower layer concentrations show more decay than the higher layer -- another indication of relative age ... except this also gives us estimates of absolute ages, so we know significant time has passed between layers. You can't escape the details, Faith. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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THE POINT IS that if the different species of trilobites are found at large distances from each other that would fit with the Flood scenario. You can't make up reality Faith. Different species of trilobites are found in the same digs, but at different elevations.
quote: It only took a simple google search to find this information, and this was the top of the list.
quote: And there is a lot more to the fauna and flora found in the layers with trilobites, all showing mature marine ecosystems functioning for multiple generations. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
All I wanted to know was how far from each other they are horizontally. Being at different elevations could mean one group directly above another group or it could mean at a different elevation but half a mile away horizontally -- or fifty feet or whatever. Irrelevant. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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