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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
When I read this book years ago I must have been a new enough Christian not to fully appreciate what I was reading. Now I'm chilled by Marx's overt embrace of Satanism. I would never have thought that even the most evil consequences of a human political philosophy had to be inspired by Satan himself, but perhaps I should start considering it. Wurmbrand points out in passing that Hitler was also a follower of the powers of darkness, which is better known in his case.
Marx openly says he wants to destroy everything good, well, everything in existence for that matter. Since it seems to me that's the actual result of his theories I have to consider that direct involvement by the Prince of Darkness himself is a real possibility, and that Marx did consciously intend the evil results. I want to post some quotations from the book but I'll have to collect them first. ABE: On the other hand maybe I can start quoting from where I am: His official biographer confirms that he told a story to his children about selling one's soul to the Devil. It's also interesting that at first he was anti-Communist.
{p.14} Marx was an avowed enemy of all gods, a man who had bought his sword from the prince of darkness at the price of his soul. He had declared it his aim to draw all mankind into the abyss and to follow them laughing. Could Marx really have bought his sword from Satan? His daughter Eleanor says that Marx told her and her sisters many stories when they were children. The one she liked most was about a certain Hans Rckle.
The telling of the story lasted months and months, because it was a long, long story and never finished. Hans Rckle was a witch ... who had a shop with toys and many debts.... Though he was a witch, he was always in financial need. Therefore he had to sell against his will all his beautiful things, piece after piece, to the Devil.... Some of these adventures were horrifying and made your hair stand on end... Is it normal for a father to tell his little children horrifying stories about selling one's dearest treasures to the Devil? Robert Payne in his book Marx also recounts this incident in great detail, as told by Eleanor - how unhappy Rckle, the magician, sold the toys with reluctance, holding on to them until the last moment. But since he had made a pact with the Devil, there was no escaping it. Marx's biographer continues,
There can be very little doubt that those interminable stories were autobiographical. He had the Devil's view of the world, and the Devil's malignity. Sometimes he seemed to know that he was accomplishing works of evil When Marx had finished Oulanem and other early poems in which he wrote about having a pact with the Devil, he had no thought of socialism. He even fought against it. He was editor of a German magazine, the Rheinische Zeitung, which "does not concede even theoretical validity to Communist ideas in their present form, let alone desire their practical realization, which it anyway finds impossible.... Attempts by masses to carry out Communist ideas can be answered by a cannon as soon as they have become dangerous...." Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
quote: source It seems that just as with Marxism your sources are either utterly ignorant, deluded or dishonest.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Or yours are.
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JonF Member (Idle past 168 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
Richard Wurmbrand was not anyone's official biographer. Why do you lie so? From the same source:
quote: And I see that your quote has only circumstantial evidence.\
Is it normal for a father to tell his little children horrifying stories about selling one's dearest treasures to the Devil? Yes. Ever read Grimm's Fairly Tales? The Dark Side of the Grimm Fairy Tales - HISTORY:
quote:
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Amazing how I get blamed for stuff I never said because people can't read. I did not say Wurmbrand is Marx's official biographer. He quoted his official biographer in the passage I posted.
So Wurmbrand objects to telling your children stories about selling your soul to the devil. He'd probably also object to the Grimm stories. So what. You certainly are adept at denying anything anyone says you don't want to believe, by invoking an impossible standard of evidence against it. You must live in a world where nobody is to be trusted except those who believe what you believe. That seems to be your entire modus operandi. So don't believe it, you'll be the loser. You must end up lost in quite a welter of lies that way but it's your choice.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Wurmbrand gives the following description of Satanic rites, which doesn't suggest much along the lines your Satanist source lists. This description is very similar however to what I heard described years ago by someone I knew who with her husband joined a Satanist church. She herself was the altar on at least one occasion:
(p. 8) One of the rituals of the Satanist church is the b[l]ack mass, which Satanist priests recite at midnight. Black candles are put in the candlesticks upside down. The priest is dressed in his ornate robes, but with the lining outside. He says all things prescribed in the prayer book, but reads from the end toward the beginning. The holy names of God, Jesus, and Mary are read inversely. A crucifix is fastened upside down or trampled upon. The body of a naked woman serves as an altar. A consecrated wafer stolen from a church is inscribed with the name Satan and is used for a mock communion. During the black mass a Bible is burned. All those present promise to commit the seven deadly sins, as enumerated in Catholic catechisms, and never to do any good. An orgy follows. So they vow to lie and steal and commit murder and adultery etc.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
The only named biographer is Payne, who is also not Marx's "official biographer", and not even one of the best. Moreover the statement attributed to him is unlikely to have been meant as literally as Wurmbrand needs it to be.
If that's the calibre of evidence on offer, I can say that Wurmbrand's effort is just another of those nasty smears you love so much.
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JonF Member (Idle past 168 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
You're right. So who is his official biographer.
So Wurmbrand objects to telling your children stories about selling your soul to the devil. He'd probably also object to the Grimm stories. So what. So I take it you admit there's no evidence Marx was a Satanist.
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JonF Member (Idle past 168 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
I don't see any mention of Marx.
Anti-Satanist BS has been a round for a long time. Without any actual evidence of such practices. Got anything written by Satanist?
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1024 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined:
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This description is very similar however to what I heard described years ago by someone I knew who with her husband joined a Satanist church The description dates from the Middle Ages. Wikipedia has a nice 16th century woodcut depicting the idea:
The idea that Marxism actually comes from Satanism is risible. All you've presented is wild accusations by a priest who'd been persecuted by communists. Marx told stories to his children about a witch who'd sold his soul to the devil, and he was not always a communist. This is not even circumstantial evidence. Wurmbrand was not always a Christian - he was a Jew and later a Communist. This is no longer trying to understand Marxism and it's influence on the modern left. This is a willful refusal to understand; instead opting for a childish fairytale in which those whose ideas you find distasteful are not only wrong - they are the conscious agents of Evil. It's easier than trying to actually understand the complexities of the world, but it won't lead to any insights.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Your source is either an ignorant fool, deluded, dishonest or jess seeing how gullible you can be.
My source and quote was from the Satanist church itself. Your source is someone willing and it seems eager to lie to con you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The description of Satanic rites was given in answer to jar's ridiculous list of supposed satanic principles, not as evidence of anything to do with Marx. Why is it that nobody ever reads in context here?
I've hardly begun to present the evidence, funny how everyone is going on as if I had. The evidence is in his early writings mostly, poetry and a drama he wrote in particular which use satanic imagery. The book is online you can check it out for yourself. Starts around page 7. ABE: I think it helps to recognize that this book is the product of Wurmbrand's interest in understanding the roots of the Communism that had persecuted him for so long. In reading up on Marx he discovered the satanic themes, the radical switch from an early Christian identity to a powerfully anti-God position, apparently the result of some kind of intense disappointment, which he says is never explained. Some of Marx's writing reflects the portrait of Satan in the Bible, but otherwise Wurmbrand had to read up on satanic practices to recognize the themes in his writing. Reading the book in terms of his gradual discoveries I think puts it into perspective. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Oh, and I didn't intend this book to become central to the discussion about today's Marxism, more of a side trip that interests me separately, though with implications to think about. But Marxism as I encounter it is still the main theme of the thread to my mind and Marx's Satanism more or less irrelevant to that. Since nothing I say on either theme would make a dent in anyone's views I consider it at least an interesting excursion for my own purposes. Yes I think it may explain a lot about Marx's intentions in his political writings, but it isn't necessary for showing their inherent destructiveness. It's an interesting read and some relief from the thread.
ABE:Wurmbrand deserves better than he's getting here and I've lost interest in giving any further evidence to the abusive mentality that prevails at EvC. If anyone is interested the book is online at the link I've given more than once. I may or may not get back to the other discussions here. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As I continue reading in the book it seems to me that the satanic themes should be very welcome at EvC, the very sort of ideas often presented here. So there shouldn't be any objection to thinking of Marx as a Satanist in the end, it's all of a piece with today's Leftism.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes, read page 16. There are many at EvC who should love the thinking of Bakunin and Proudhon who directly praise Satan, in relation to socialism too. The plot thickens. Socialism IS a work of the devil and it makes sense that there are those who embrace both and hate God. (Making distinctions between Socialism, Communism and Marxism isn't justified by the Marxists themselves).
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