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Author Topic:   Exploring (mostly Cultural) Marxism in today's Left
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 381 (813205)
06-24-2017 10:19 AM


Reading Marx and Satan
When I read this book years ago I must have been a new enough Christian not to fully appreciate what I was reading. Now I'm chilled by Marx's overt embrace of Satanism. I would never have thought that even the most evil consequences of a human political philosophy had to be inspired by Satan himself, but perhaps I should start considering it. Wurmbrand points out in passing that Hitler was also a follower of the powers of darkness, which is better known in his case.
Marx openly says he wants to destroy everything good, well, everything in existence for that matter. Since it seems to me that's the actual result of his theories I have to consider that direct involvement by the Prince of Darkness himself is a real possibility, and that Marx did consciously intend the evil results.
I want to post some quotations from the book but I'll have to collect them first.
ABE: On the other hand maybe I can start quoting from where I am: His official biographer confirms that he told a story to his children about selling one's soul to the Devil. It's also interesting that at first he was anti-Communist.
{p.14} Marx was an avowed enemy of all gods, a man who had bought his sword from the prince of darkness at the price of his soul. He had declared it his aim to draw all mankind into the abyss and to follow them laughing.
Could Marx really have bought his sword from Satan?
His daughter Eleanor says that Marx told her and her sisters many stories when they were children. The one she liked most was about a certain Hans Rckle.
The telling of the story lasted months and months, because it was a long, long story and never finished. Hans Rckle was a witch ... who had a shop with toys and many debts.... Though he was a witch, he was always in financial need. Therefore he had to sell against his will all his beautiful things, piece after piece, to the Devil.... Some of these adventures were horrifying and made your hair stand on end...
Is it normal for a father to tell his little children horrifying stories about selling one's dearest treasures to the Devil? Robert Payne in his book Marx also recounts this incident in great detail, as told by Eleanor - how unhappy Rckle, the magician, sold the toys with reluctance, holding on to them until the last moment. But since he had made a pact with the Devil, there was no escaping it. Marx's biographer continues,
There can be very little doubt that those interminable stories were autobiographical. He had the Devil's view of the world, and the Devil's malignity. Sometimes he seemed to know that he was accomplishing works of evil
When Marx had finished Oulanem and other early poems in which he wrote about having a pact with the Devil, he had no thought of socialism. He even fought against it. He was editor of a German magazine, the Rheinische Zeitung, which "does not concede even theoretical validity to Communist ideas in their present form, let alone desire their practical realization, which it anyway finds impossible.... Attempts by masses to carry out Communist ideas can be answered by a cannon as soon as they have become dangerous...."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 06-24-2017 10:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 124 by JonF, posted 06-24-2017 11:42 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 381 (813207)
06-24-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
06-24-2017 10:19 AM


the Tenets of Satanism
quote:
There are seven fundamental tenets.
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word
source
It seems that just as with Marxism your sources are either utterly ignorant, deluded or dishonest.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 10:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 123 of 381 (813208)
06-24-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
06-24-2017 10:43 AM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Or yours are.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 124 of 381 (813213)
06-24-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
06-24-2017 10:19 AM


Re: Reading Marx and Satan
Richard Wurmbrand was not anyone's official biographer. Why do you lie so? From the same source:
quote:
He compiled circumstantial evidence that Marx was a satanist
And I see that your quote has only circumstantial evidence.\
Is it normal for a father to tell his little children horrifying stories about selling one's dearest treasures to the Devil?
Yes. Ever read Grimm's Fairly Tales? The Dark Side of the Grimm Fairy Tales - HISTORY:
quote:
Graphic violence
Although the brothers Grimm toned down the sex in later editions of their work, they actually ramped up the violence. A particularly horrific incident occurs in The Robber Bridegroom, when some bandits drag a maiden into their underground hideout, force her to drink wine until her heart bursts, rip off her clothes and then hack her body into pieces. Other tales have similarly gory episodes. In Cinderella the evil stepsisters cut off their toes and heels trying to make the slipper fit and later have their eyes pecked out by doves; in The Six Swans an evil mother-in-law is burned at the stake; in The Goose Maid a false bride is stripped naked, thrown into a barrel filled with nails and dragged through the streets; and in Snow White the wicked queen dies after being forced to dance in red-hot iron shoes. Even the love stories contain violence. The princess in The Frog King turns her amphibian companion into a human not by kissing it, but instead by hurling it against a wall in frustration.
Child abuse
Even more shockingly, much of the violence in Grimm’s Fairy Tales is directed at children. Snow White is just 7 years old when the huntsman takes her into the forest with orders to bring back her liver and lungs. In The Juniper Tree a woman decapitates her stepson as he bends down to get an apple. She then chops up his body, cooks him in a stew and serves it to her husband, who enjoys the meal so much he asks for seconds. Snow White eventually wins the day, as does the boy in The Juniper Tree, who is brought back to life. But not every child in the Grimms’ book is so lucky. The title character in Frau Trude turns a disobedient girl into a block of wood and tosses her into a fire. And in The Stubborn Child a youngster dies after God lets him become sick.
Anti-Semitism
The Grimms gathered over 200 tales for their collection, three of which contained Jewish characters. In The Jew in the Brambles the protagonist happily torments a Jew by forcing him to dance in a thicket of thorns. He also insults the Jew, calling him a dirty dog, among other things. Later on, a judge doubts that a Jew would ever voluntarily give away money. The Jew in the story turns out to be a thief and is hanged. In The Good Bargain a Jewish man is likewise portrayed as a penny-pinching swindler. During the Third Reich, the Nazis adopted the Grimms’ tales for propaganda purposes. They claimed, for instance, that Little Red Riding Hood symbolized the German people suffering at the hands of the Jewish wolf, and that Cinderella’s Aryan purity distinguished her from her mongrel stepsisters.
Incest
In All-Kinds-of-Fur a king promises his dying wife that he will only remarry if his new bride is as beautiful as her. Unfortunately, no such woman exists in the whole world except his daughter, who ends up escaping his clutches by fleeing into the wilderness. While interviewing sources, the Grimms likewise heard versions of a different story—The Girl Without Hands—with an incestuous father. Nonetheless, in all editions of their book they recast this father as the devil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 10:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 12:04 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 125 of 381 (813216)
06-24-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by JonF
06-24-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Reading Marx and Satan
Amazing how I get blamed for stuff I never said because people can't read. I did not say Wurmbrand is Marx's official biographer. He quoted his official biographer in the passage I posted.
So Wurmbrand objects to telling your children stories about selling your soul to the devil. He'd probably also object to the Grimm stories. So what.
You certainly are adept at denying anything anyone says you don't want to believe, by invoking an impossible standard of evidence against it. You must live in a world where nobody is to be trusted except those who believe what you believe. That seems to be your entire modus operandi. So don't believe it, you'll be the loser. You must end up lost in quite a welter of lies that way but it's your choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by JonF, posted 06-24-2017 11:42 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 126 of 381 (813217)
06-24-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
06-24-2017 10:43 AM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Wurmbrand gives the following description of Satanic rites, which doesn't suggest much along the lines your Satanist source lists. This description is very similar however to what I heard described years ago by someone I knew who with her husband joined a Satanist church. She herself was the altar on at least one occasion:
(p. 8) One of the rituals of the Satanist church is the b[l]ack mass, which Satanist priests recite at midnight. Black candles are put in the candlesticks upside down. The priest is dressed in his ornate robes, but with the lining outside. He says all things prescribed in the prayer book, but reads from the end toward the beginning. The holy names of God, Jesus, and Mary are read inversely. A crucifix is fastened upside down or trampled upon. The body of a naked woman serves as an altar. A consecrated wafer stolen from a church is inscribed with the name Satan and is used for a mock communion. During the black mass a Bible is burned. All those present promise to commit the seven deadly sins, as enumerated in Catholic catechisms, and never to do any good. An orgy follows.
So they vow to lie and steal and commit murder and adultery etc.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 381 (813221)
06-24-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-24-2017 12:04 PM


Re: Reading Marx and Satan
The only named biographer is Payne, who is also not Marx's "official biographer", and not even one of the best. Moreover the statement attributed to him is unlikely to have been meant as literally as Wurmbrand needs it to be.
If that's the calibre of evidence on offer, I can say that Wurmbrand's effort is just another of those nasty smears you love so much.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 128 of 381 (813225)
06-24-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-24-2017 12:04 PM


Re: Reading Marx and Satan
You're right. So who is his official biographer.
So Wurmbrand objects to telling your children stories about selling your soul to the devil. He'd probably also object to the Grimm stories. So what.
So I take it you admit there's no evidence Marx was a Satanist.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 129 of 381 (813226)
06-24-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
06-24-2017 12:11 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
I don't see any mention of Marx.
Anti-Satanist BS has been a round for a long time. Without any actual evidence of such practices. Got anything written by Satanist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 130 of 381 (813229)
06-24-2017 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
06-24-2017 12:11 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
This description is very similar however to what I heard described years ago by someone I knew who with her husband joined a Satanist church
The description dates from the Middle Ages. Wikipedia has a nice 16th century woodcut depicting the idea:
The idea that Marxism actually comes from Satanism is risible. All you've presented is wild accusations by a priest who'd been persecuted by communists. Marx told stories to his children about a witch who'd sold his soul to the devil, and he was not always a communist. This is not even circumstantial evidence. Wurmbrand was not always a Christian - he was a Jew and later a Communist.
This is no longer trying to understand Marxism and it's influence on the modern left. This is a willful refusal to understand; instead opting for a childish fairytale in which those whose ideas you find distasteful are not only wrong - they are the conscious agents of Evil. It's easier than trying to actually understand the complexities of the world, but it won't lead to any insights.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 12:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 381 (813230)
06-24-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
06-24-2017 12:11 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Your source is either an ignorant fool, deluded, dishonest or jess seeing how gullible you can be.
My source and quote was from the Satanist church itself. Your source is someone willing and it seems eager to lie to con you.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 381 (813232)
06-24-2017 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by caffeine
06-24-2017 4:54 PM


IRe: the Tenets of Satanism
The description of Satanic rites was given in answer to jar's ridiculous list of supposed satanic principles, not as evidence of anything to do with Marx. Why is it that nobody ever reads in context here?
I've hardly begun to present the evidence, funny how everyone is going on as if I had.
The evidence is in his early writings mostly, poetry and a drama he wrote in particular which use satanic imagery. The book is online you can check it out for yourself. Starts around page 7.
ABE: I think it helps to recognize that this book is the product of Wurmbrand's interest in understanding the roots of the Communism that had persecuted him for so long. In reading up on Marx he discovered the satanic themes, the radical switch from an early Christian identity to a powerfully anti-God position, apparently the result of some kind of intense disappointment, which he says is never explained. Some of Marx's writing reflects the portrait of Satan in the Bible, but otherwise Wurmbrand had to read up on satanic practices to recognize the themes in his writing. Reading the book in terms of his gradual discoveries I think puts it into perspective.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 381 (813233)
06-24-2017 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by caffeine
06-24-2017 4:54 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Oh, and I didn't intend this book to become central to the discussion about today's Marxism, more of a side trip that interests me separately, though with implications to think about. But Marxism as I encounter it is still the main theme of the thread to my mind and Marx's Satanism more or less irrelevant to that. Since nothing I say on either theme would make a dent in anyone's views I consider it at least an interesting excursion for my own purposes. Yes I think it may explain a lot about Marx's intentions in his political writings, but it isn't necessary for showing their inherent destructiveness. It's an interesting read and some relief from the thread.
ABE:
Wurmbrand deserves better than he's getting here and I've lost interest in giving any further evidence to the abusive mentality that prevails at EvC. If anyone is interested the book is online at the link I've given more than once. I may or may not get back to the other discussions here.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 134 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 7:40 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 134 of 381 (813234)
06-24-2017 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Faith
06-24-2017 7:18 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
As I continue reading in the book it seems to me that the satanic themes should be very welcome at EvC, the very sort of ideas often presented here. So there shouldn't be any objection to thinking of Marx as a Satanist in the end, it's all of a piece with today's Leftism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 7:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 8:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 381 (813235)
06-24-2017 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
06-24-2017 7:40 PM


Re: the Tenets of Satanism
Yes, read page 16. There are many at EvC who should love the thinking of Bakunin and Proudhon who directly praise Satan, in relation to socialism too. The plot thickens. Socialism IS a work of the devil and it makes sense that there are those who embrace both and hate God. (Making distinctions between Socialism, Communism and Marxism isn't justified by the Marxists themselves).

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 Message 134 by Faith, posted 06-24-2017 7:40 PM Faith has replied

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