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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 166 of 182 (814252)
07-05-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 10:34 AM


NCE writes:
I have a set of personal experiences and beliefs, just like everyone else. The word "religion" can be used to describe that set and that is how I have been using the word.
I don't have "a set of personal experiences and beliefs, just like everyone else" that could "describe a religion".
But anyway, you've had what you call a religious experience and you're also a member of a religious organisation. Fine, been there, done that.
So is it going to carry on or is it going to fade away?
It's going to do what it's been doing for decades which is fade away. That's both the organisation and with it the experience. Without the perpetuation of the myth, the need to worship it fades away. If you haven't been told the myth you can't have the religious experience relating to it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 1:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 170 of 182 (814265)
07-05-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 1:53 PM


NCE writes:
Technically I'm not......You wrongly assume that the experiences are tied to the organization.
Technically??
I don't see much point in me playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey much longer, perhaps it's time you told us what this experience is, what brought it on, why it was so important to you and why it's nothing to do with organised religion.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 1:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 173 of 182 (814277)
07-05-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 2:15 PM


NCE writes:
I'm not currently an active member of a parish.
Nothing is being dictated to me and I have no leaders.
Well I read your thread and it turns out you're a Catholic, born-againish, Christian with some history of addiction and mental illness, possibly bipolar. All the stuff I hinted at.
Look, it's not my intention to do you or your beliefs down, nor disparage the help you feel you've received from your new-found revelation but this is pretty classical stuff.
But it has nothing to do with the general point that religions and their myths are declining because fairer, more balanced, more rational secular societies are replacing them. No doubt individuals in crisis will always fall into the well of wishful thinking - our minds are complex things - but these people are the minority even in religious communities and they never find anything that is outside their previous religious knowledge. Most are more like you used to be - there but not really.
I wish you well with your recovery.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 3:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 175 of 182 (814285)
07-05-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 3:56 PM


NCE writes:
Yeah, classical stuff that continues to still happen to people despite participation in major religions declining.
You say you have a science training and used to be rational. Has all that gone out of the window with this born-again stuff?
It will always happen as long as there's mental illness but it will always be a minority inside a minority. It's not a material effect compared to a general decline. A decline in organised religion coinciding with an increase in atheism should tell you all you need to know. Scandanavians are not just not attending churches, they're dropping religion, both public and private.
It's happening in secular societies too - people just aren't communing in person that much these days anymore.
This seems to be thing with you. I don't share it. People are using social media AND communing in person.
it's to our own detriment - social media is just too shallow to replace good ol' fashioned community. People will start to figure it out and then they'll come together again. It may or may not have anything to do with religion, but religion is a good way to bring people together so I wouldn't be surprised.
People still live in, and participate in communities, they haven't gone away. Religious communities disapear with religion - this isn't an assertion, it's what happens.
But your whole dying out and going away mantra is misguided, imho.
It's happening. Don't deny reality - it always ends badly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-07-2017 8:52 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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