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Author Topic:   APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION of Pope Francis
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 31 of 62 (814086)
07-04-2017 9:30 AM


Faith raised the issue of Egyptian myths being borrowed by the Christian religion.
This is always a confusing issue. James Tabor is a competent scholar and he lightly covers the issue from time to time in his work.
This is a quote from his online article, Eat My Body, Drink My Blood - Did Jesus Ever Really Say This?
quote:
The closest parallels we have to this kind of idea are found in Greek magical materials from this period. For example, in one of the magical papyri we read of a spell in which one drinks a cup of wine has been ritually consecrated to represent the blood of the god Osiris, in order to participate in the spiritual power he had for his consort Isis.
There is evidence of the ideas in the sacrifice of Jesus in pre Christ times. See the article for more details of some aspects of the God sacrifice.
Faith said that the Virgin Birth is a pagan borrowing which was Satan laying some sort of groundwork to undermine Christian doctrines, right?
It is interesting to understand that Christians never existed until very recently in world history, so it seems that these old pagan religious beliefs were all the world ever had of what now makes up Christian doctrine.
Transport Faith back 2500 years into the past and pagans (especially in the Iranian Empire orbit ) would be the only ones that promote heaven and hell and judgment day ( while sharing monotheism with the Jewish community ).
I wasn't going to cover the eastern belief systems in this thread, but I think I will get my World Book Encyclopedia out just to see if I can find something useful. I think I will just quote 1 article. But
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 32 of 62 (814090)
07-04-2017 10:04 AM


World Book article, Bhagavad-Gita
quote:
Bhagavad-Gita, BUGH uh vuhd GEE tah, is one of the major sacred works of Hinduism. It is part of the Mahabharata, a great epic poem of India...
....
...a philosophical dialogue between the warrior Arjuna and his chariot driver, Krishna. It takes place before Arjuna goes to battle his cousins, the Kauravas. Krishna tells Arjuna to rise above the limits of the physical world. He urges Arjuna to realize that life and death are unreal, compared with the soul's eternal nature. After the battle, Krishna reveals that he is the god Vishnu. According to the Bhagavad-Gita, the best way to gain salvation is through love and devotion to Vishnu.
The human Krishna was an incarnation of God. With the heaven and hell of the Indian religions, there was the Iranian religion coloring the Indian myths as they made their way to Palestine.
I wonder what Faith would be saying if she was transferred back to the Middle East 2100 years ago (a time machine scenario ).
I guess she would say that "It is the name God and his Avatar is called that matters and makes all the difference ".
But our word "God " isn't what the first century Christian community ever used. What do today's Christians know about the name that the Iranian Christians used in the first Christian century? We know that the communities existed from the first few chapters of Acts.
Faith admits that most Christians weren't "real" Christians when she comments on the Roman Catholic Church in her posts.
The dirty little secret is that there were no Christians period for the first 4.6 billion years of Earth history (and even most of the time since writing was invented ).

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:42 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 34 of 62 (814118)
07-04-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
07-04-2017 10:42 AM


I was sort of on the Catholic and Christian diversity thing.
The issue of pre Christ stuff in the Christian religion might not be a great big thing or not when it comes to the Catholic Church issue.
Faith and me both agree and disagree on the Catholic Church thing.
I think the early second century Roman church was essentially the Roman Catholic Church (a new European version of Christianity and not related to the first century Christian founders ), while she seems to consider it a continuation of the Apostles religion. (I think )
She tends to see much of early European Christianity as a direct successor to the Semitic founders. But there is a (yet to be defined by Faith ) hypothetical "perversion" - at some (unspecified) point in time - which resulted in the evolution of "The Church" into the Roman Catholic Church. The true church was gradually influenced by pre Christ pagan borrowing, according to Faith.
I don't know it I am doing her theory correctly.
But I was attempting to see the case made since Faith seems to see some significant dichotomy between the Roman Catholic Church and the later Protestant movement based on the pagan borrowing issues.
The Virgin Mary was mentioned but I actually don't know what exactly is the dichotomy between the Catholic Church view and (fundamentalist ) Protestants on this one. I see a quite big difference between the Jewish Christian folk of the first several centuries and the Roman Catholic Church. Faith raised that issue but my observations of the first century Christian doctrines might not have been exactly what she had in mind.
(And regardless, I don't know how the pre Christ incarnation views of pagan religions exactly made their way into the Christ/Christian movement and at what time )
(The Avatar religions to this day have both incarnation Avatars and spiritual possession type of Avatars just like Christianity has the Virgin Birth on the one hand and the Baptism based Adoptionism Christology )
The (re) incarnation stuff isn't Zoroastrianism BTW. Ditto for the Virgin Birth stuff.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : Adoptionism was badly misspelled

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 Message 33 by Phat, posted 07-04-2017 10:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 7:38 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 35 of 62 (814120)
07-04-2017 2:29 PM


The page 2 (posts 16-30) stuff and the "Apostolic" part of the thread title.
Faith seems to be responding to the Apostolic claims of the Catholic Church and that is why the thread has 2 different discussions going at the same time.
I can see that Phat doesn't like where the discussion is in the parallel discussion.
Posts 19-35 aren't what you wanted discussed, right Phat? Not a debate about the Apostolic succession of the Roman Catholic Church.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 44 of 62 (814319)
07-06-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dredge
07-06-2017 7:38 AM


Re: I was sort of on the Catholic and Christian diversity thing.
Evolution is gonna get into this thread I see. The parallel to what you just said might be whether Genesis 1:1 to 2:4a can be describing progressive creation. Then ask if theistic evolution is possibly being described.
Genesis 2:4a uses the word Toledoth which is based on the word yalad which means he gave birth. The word toledoth is a noun that is a record of birthings. Generation is the translation.
I read a book by a creationist that said that the Virgin Birth was a counter to naturalistic evolution and the naturalistic process of human generations. The word generation was specifically used. It was ironic considering the Genesis 2:4 translation using "generations" .
The book was Many Infallible Proofs by Morris.
He said that the process of birth generations was a type of naturalism that the Virgin Birth of Jesus was a response to.
So perhaps Genesis 1 is compatible with naturalist concepts? Or maybe just progressive creation?
Toledoth is plural word btw. GenerationS
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 48 of 62 (814325)
07-06-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Dredge
07-06-2017 5:29 AM


About the money and government force issues.
The issue of the government taxing the people based on democratic decisions of the majority is no different than putting up borders based on the votes of the majority.
Government imposed policy that we all must live by is reality.
Do you feel that individuals should have the right to opt out of paying their share of the $1 trillion in military and security bills in our budget?
Can you allow for a "private sector" solution to immigration? Let us private individuals decide to immigrate if we do choose and the government should butt out?
The Pope rules in Italy. I don't see evidence of the modern papacy forcing anything today. The pre 20th century was another matter. The papacy was about controlling the world (if possible ) plus it owned lots of stolen land all over Europe (claims of DONATIONS via Constantine were known to be based on forged fraudulent texts )

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Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 07-06-2017 4:49 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 50 of 62 (814327)
07-06-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
07-06-2017 4:49 PM


Re: About the money and government force issues.
This ruling in Italy comment wasn't to say that Italy is ruled. ( I meant that Vatican City is located within Italy ) The Papal States fell by 1870 for ever.
My point is that the Pope would probably support a democratic government in the United States which implemented a policy that sends dollars to children instead of the military.
The example would be an alternative to the Congressional budget that proposes increasing the military budget $72.5 a year. The same amount can give $100 a month to every single child. ( I know that I just read that $190 billion a year would be the amount needed to give every pre 18 person in the United States $250 a month or $225)
Medicaid cost the federal government $368 billion in 2016, which was an amount less than what the Bush tax cuts cost us in 2016. About $100 billion less and it would be over $130 billion less if changes weren't made in January 2013 .
Democracy ( advocacy of policy ) is "force" but Papal tyranny in the past is just fine I guess.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 07-06-2017 4:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 07-06-2017 6:37 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 52 of 62 (814332)
07-06-2017 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by jar
07-06-2017 6:37 PM


Re: About the money and government force issues.
Did you read the OP?
Government policy toward the poor was described as part of the mission.
Health care was indeed a part of the quotes of the Pope in the OP.
EDIT --- A poster said a critical note about the Pope insisting that the government should cover the costs of poor people who have needs. The word was "force" when taxation was in mind.
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

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