Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-10-2017 8:50 PM
335 online now:
dwise1, jar (2 members, 333 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,000 Year: 28,606/21,208 Month: 672/1,847 Week: 47/475 Day: 47/58 Hour: 2/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
7891011
12
Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 166 of 176 (814252)
07-05-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 10:34 AM


NCE writes:

I have a set of personal experiences and beliefs, just like everyone else. The word "religion" can be used to describe that set and that is how I have been using the word.

I don't have "a set of personal experiences and beliefs, just like everyone else" that could "describe a religion".

But anyway, you've had what you call a religious experience and you're also a member of a religious organisation. Fine, been there, done that.

So is it going to carry on or is it going to fade away?

It's going to do what it's been doing for decades which is fade away. That's both the organisation and with it the experience. Without the perpetuation of the myth, the need to worship it fades away. If you haven't been told the myth you can't have the religious experience relating to it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:34 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 1:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5627
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 167 of 176 (814260)
07-05-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Agobot
09-24-2008 12:52 PM


Re: Who orchestrated this?
Hi Agobot,

Agobot writes:

If Free Will is not ours then whose is it? Who/what could have a reason for orchestrating an Universe and life and play with our lives, in a pre-determined game?

You have raised many questions which raise several questions for me.

Where would free will come from in the evolution process?
You suggest the genes, then talk about DNA which has the blueprint for the human body in every cell in the body.

Since the information in the DNA is gained through the evolution process where does the free will come from?

The only free will I know of comes from God and it is built into every human.

You have the free will to believe in God or not to believe in God.

If you believe in God you have the free will to take Him at His Word and trust Him to take care of the future.

But free will if evolution is correct is an impossibility in my opinion as someone or something had to program it into humans.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Agobot, posted 09-24-2008 12:52 PM Agobot has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Stile, posted 07-05-2017 1:46 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3044
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 168 of 176 (814262)
07-05-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by ICANT
07-05-2017 12:49 PM


Re: Who orchestrated this?
ICANT writes:

Since the information in the DNA is gained through the evolution process where does the free will come from?

What is it about the evolution process you think prevents free will from being created?

The only free will I know of comes from God and it is built into every human.

And the only free will I know of comes from the evolution process which is also built into every human.

At least there's some evidence for the evolution process to exist...
What now?

At one point, there were no eyes.
Through the evolution process of mutation and natural selection... there are now eyes.

At one point, there were no air breathing creatures.
Through the evolution process of mutation and natural selection... there are now air breathing creatures.

At one point, there were no brains.
Through the evolution process of mutation and natural selection... there are now brains.

At one point, there was no free will.
Through the evolution process of mutation and natural selection... there is now free will.

All that's required for free will is a brain developed past a certain point. One that can reflect, imagine and judge.
We know that mutation and natural selection develops brains.
We know that some brains can reflect, imagine and judge (like humans, whales, dolphins, elephants...)
We know that some brains cannot (creatures that are instinctually driven.. always doing X whenever Y happens...)

What is it about mutation and natural selection that you think prevents it from developing reflection, imagination and judgment?

But free will if evolution is correct is an impossibility in my opinion as someone or something had to program it into humans.

I'm pretty sure your opinion of things still has no effect on reality.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ICANT, posted 07-05-2017 12:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 169 of 176 (814263)
07-05-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Tangle
07-05-2017 11:59 AM


you're also a member of a religious organisation.

Technically I'm not.

That's both the organisation and with it the experience.

You wrongly assume that the experiences are tied to the organization.

Without the perpetuation of the myth, the need to worship it fades away.

And yet, weird stuff will still happen to people and they will still relate to each other about it - so there will be religion. There's no needed perpetuation of a myth to keep it alive, and what I'm talking about has nothing to do with a need to worship.

If you haven't been told the myth you can't have the religious experience relating to it.

But you can still have unrelated spiritual experiences upon which to base your personal religious beliefs. I don't see that going away.

And people will naturally congregate, commune, and organize, so, yeah...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 11:59 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 2:04 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 170 of 176 (814265)
07-05-2017 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 1:53 PM


NCE writes:

Technically I'm not......You wrongly assume that the experiences are tied to the organization.

Technically??

I don't see much point in me playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey much longer, perhaps it's time you told us what this experience is, what brought it on, why it was so important to you and why it's nothing to do with organised religion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 1:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 171 of 176 (814268)
07-05-2017 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Tangle
07-05-2017 2:04 PM


Technically??

I'm not currently an active member of a parish.

Nothing is being dictated to me and I have no leaders.

I don't see much point in me playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey much longer, perhaps it's time you told us what this experience is, what brought it on, why it was so important to you and why it's nothing to do with organised religion.

I have been doing some of that in this thread, but here you go:

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=19334


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 2:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13963
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 172 of 176 (814274)
07-05-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
07-05-2017 1:50 AM


Re: How Free Are We?
Phat writes:

What do you mean by "empty"?


I mean that your prediction - i.e. people will flock to religion in a crisis - has no basis.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 07-05-2017 1:50 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 173 of 176 (814277)
07-05-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 2:15 PM


NCE writes:

I'm not currently an active member of a parish.
Nothing is being dictated to me and I have no leaders.

Well I read your thread and it turns out you're a Catholic, born-againish, Christian with some history of addiction and mental illness, possibly bipolar. All the stuff I hinted at.

Look, it's not my intention to do you or your beliefs down, nor disparage the help you feel you've received from your new-found revelation but this is pretty classical stuff.

But it has nothing to do with the general point that religions and their myths are declining because fairer, more balanced, more rational secular societies are replacing them. No doubt individuals in crisis will always fall into the well of wishful thinking - our minds are complex things - but these people are the minority even in religious communities and they never find anything that is outside their previous religious knowledge. Most are more like you used to be - there but not really.

I wish you well with your recovery.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 174 of 176 (814281)
07-05-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Tangle
07-05-2017 3:27 PM


Well I read your thread and it turns out you're a Catholic, born-againish, Christian with some history of addiction and mental illness, possibly bipolar. All the stuff I hinted at.

Well it turns out that I'm not bipolar, so I got that going for me.

Look, it's not my intention to do you or your beliefs down, nor disparage the help you feel you've received from your new-found revelation but this is pretty classical stuff.

Yeah, classical stuff that continues to still happen to people despite participation in major religions declining.

But it has nothing to do with the general point that religions and their myths are declining because fairer, more balanced, more rational secular societies are replacing them.

And as I have been saying, that doesn't mean that people will stop being religious. They're just not claiming membership to the clubs anymore.

It's happening in secular societies too - people just aren't communing in person that much these days anymore. And it's to our own detriment - social media is just too shallow to replace good ol' fashioned community. People will start to figure it out and then they'll come together again. It may or may not have anything to do with religion, but religion is a good way to bring people together so I wouldn't be surprised.

But your whole dying out and going away mantra is misguided, imho.

No doubt individuals in crisis will always fall into the well of wishful thinking - our minds are complex things - but these people are the minority even in religious communities and they never find anything that is outside their previous religious knowledge.

That's two things that you do not know and I'm pretty sure you're just plain wrong about.

I wish you well with your recovery.

Thank you. My life has never been better.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 3:27 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5232
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 175 of 176 (814285)
07-05-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by New Cat's Eye
07-05-2017 3:56 PM


NCE writes:

Yeah, classical stuff that continues to still happen to people despite participation in major religions declining.

You say you have a science training and used to be rational. Has all that gone out of the window with this born-again stuff?

It will always happen as long as there's mental illness but it will always be a minority inside a minority. It's not a material effect compared to a general decline. A decline in organised religion coinciding with an increase in atheism should tell you all you need to know. Scandanavians are not just not attending churches, they're dropping religion, both public and private.

It's happening in secular societies too - people just aren't communing in person that much these days anymore.

This seems to be thing with you. I don't share it. People are using social media AND communing in person.

it's to our own detriment - social media is just too shallow to replace good ol' fashioned community. People will start to figure it out and then they'll come together again. It may or may not have anything to do with religion, but religion is a good way to bring people together so I wouldn't be surprised.

People still live in, and participate in communities, they haven't gone away. Religious communities disapear with religion - this isn't an assertion, it's what happens.

But your whole dying out and going away mantra is misguided, imho.

It's happening. Don't deny reality - it always ends badly.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 3:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-07-2017 8:52 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 176 of 176 (814340)
07-07-2017 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Tangle
07-05-2017 4:30 PM


You say you have a science training and used to be rational. Has all that gone out of the window with this born-again stuff?

Nope.

I did stop taking an analytical/scientific approach to addressing my emotional needs, but only because it was failing me and I found a better way.

As long as it works, people will keep finding it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 4:30 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
7891011
12
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017