Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-23-2017 4:50 PM
419 online now:
DrJones*, NoNukes, PaulK, Porosity (4 members, 415 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,904 Year: 27,510/21,208 Month: 1,423/1,714 Week: 266/365 Day: 35/73 Hour: 1/6

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234
5
Author Topic:   Between A Rock & A Hard Place
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5164
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 61 of 66 (814655)
07-11-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
07-11-2017 2:08 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
I read the 2009 and thought I was reading a 2017 thread - so I agree, you haven't changed much :-)

But, since you've been praying for answers for at least 8 years and not got any, why do you still believe that you will? Can't God work as fast as this forum? Are you just sat in his in tray?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 2:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 2:44 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 62 of 66 (814657)
07-11-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
I answered this also in 2009. Post 59.
2009 Phat writes:

I look at prayer this way: It causes me to open my mind and heart to a voice,belief, or unction that is contrary to my own. For instance, say I have an ongoing fight with an adversary. Perhaps I believe this adversary to be evil---perhaps not--but at the very least I despise this adversary and seek to win any and all future encounters with them.
In my prayer, I ask God to help me...and I also find myself praying to see things from the adversarial point of view. Intuitively I know that this is the best way to solve the subtle diplomacy of resolution with this adversary.
Looked at another way, its almost as if in order to defeat Satan we almost have to see how he thinks and why he thinks the way he does. upon deeper examination, I have often found that satan is simply my own ego within me...seeking to dominate another person. Prayer could be seen to be a form of meditative introspection. God is simply the therapist...prodding us to go deeper within ourselves and asking questions that give us the opportunity to confront our biases and prejudices.

Secular arguments could just as easily drop the God-in-me and satan-in-me approach and go with ID, Ego, and SuperEgo.

The keywords towards such an approach as prayer are introspection and mindfulness


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:59 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5164
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 63 of 66 (814660)
07-11-2017 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
07-11-2017 2:44 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
Phat writes:

I answered this also in 2009. Post 59.

Yeh, it was an excuse then and it still is. You prayed for an answer, you didn't get one. After 8 years of trying.

Secular arguments could just as easily drop the God-in-me and satan-in-me approach and go with ID, Ego, and SuperEgo.

No you couldn't - all that stuff is just as big a load of bollox as the god stuff. Just people making stuff up.

The keywords towards such an approach as prayer are introspection and mindfulness

Just today's crap.

Ignore all the crap - get on with a sensible life, stop obsessing about yourself - go do something useful instead.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 2:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 3:25 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 1:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 64 of 66 (814661)
07-11-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
You surely are something else! As Groucho might have said, "I resemble that remark!"

I'm a stubborn one, though. I see no internal evidence that prayer has failed me. I am changing every month, though you may argue that the change is happening regardless of prayer and is due to actions I have taken. I won't argue that one.

Why the obsession or passion at eliminating religion and beliefs, however? I can understand you not embracing it yourself...but your proselytizing of evidence and logic is taken to an extreme, in my opinion.

all that stuff is just as big a load of bollox as the god stuff. Just people making stuff up.
So you are saying that Freud made stuff up also? Interesting....

Edited by Phat, : added features!

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 4:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5164
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 65 of 66 (814664)
07-11-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
07-11-2017 3:25 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
Phat writes:

I'm a stubborn one, though. I see no internal evidence that prayer has failed me.

Except you've been praying for 8 years and haven't had an answer. In the real world, if you called a number for 8 years and didn't get an answer, what would your conclusion be?

Why the obsession or passion at eliminating religion and beliefs, however?

Despite me saying repeatedly that I don't think that eliminating religion is desirable or possible and that it is eliminating itself by exposure to modern science, you need to impose your own version of my beliefs on it?

...but your proselytizing of evidence and logic is taken to an extreme, in my opinion.

I would say that it's evidence taken to it's logical conclusion, but I can understand why you'd see it as extreem. I'm certainly at the opposite end of the belief spectrum to yourself.

So you are saying that Freud made stuff up also?

Of course he did. There's no such thing as 'ids', 'egos' and 'superegos' - they're his theoretical constructs. They can't be measured or monitored - they're essentially untestable. Still, his work had a lot of impact, though largely disgarded by modern clinical psychologists.

But my main point is that you spend endless time thinking about yourself - thatseems to me to be counter-productive.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 3:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10079
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 66 of 66 (816992)
08-14-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
Ignore all the crap - get on with a sensible life, stop obsessing about yourself - go do something useful instead.
See? You really are an encourager!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:59 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Prev1234
5
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017