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Author Topic:   Creation
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 1482 (783107)
05-03-2016 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ICANT
05-02-2016 10:49 PM


Re: Chronology?
Point out in the message where I said the Seth of Genesis 4:26 would have to die before the heavens and the earth were created.
Below is exactly what you said in the message I responded to. As best as I can tell, it claims that it makes no difference regarding a Seth as described in 4:26 because such a person would have died during the creation of the heavens and earth in 1:1 if 4:26 was as it appears to me. We can quibble about whether that means Seth died during or prior to the resulting void and empty earth described in Genesis 1:2 But in either event the alleged scenario does not seem to leave a way for Seth or Enos to have any descendants who became the ancestors of Isaac or Jacob and even forward from that point.
If you have a point, I'd appreciate if you get to it. Your quibbling about words and phrasing that do not resolve the issue would be fine if they were accompanied by an addressing of the issues. But that never seems to happen. I strongly suspect I would be better of reading other explanations that waiting for you to respond. If your view differs significantly from Gap theory, I suspect I will never understand it because getting you to answer questions is too painful and you appear to be the only source for whatever it is you believe.
ICANT writes:
I plainly stated that it did not make any difference whether they were inserts or not that if the man formed from the dust of the ground had a son named Seth he would have died in the day the heavens and the earth was created.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ICANT, posted 05-02-2016 10:49 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 1482 (783249)
05-04-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
05-04-2016 12:51 AM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
Jeremiah saw the earth without form and void, there was no birds, no man, and the heavens were black. The only time that condition has ever existed was in Genesis 1:2
But given that Jeremiah was providing a warning about the future, the fact such condition did not currently exist would not be that surprising, would it? I note that my complaint about not looking at the verses surrounding 4:23-4:26 resulted in you printing a couple more verses, but then not taking into account their content.
Why do I need to ask the same questions and then complain about the same lack of response over and over? Why do you even bother responding without answering the question, or at least telling me why the question is invalid?
I am just giving you an opportunity to preach, right?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2016 12:51 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2016 5:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 1482 (783264)
05-04-2016 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
05-04-2016 5:13 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
I think there were a few other things in the message you replied too.
Surely you are not complaining about portions of your message not being addressed? Not you, ICANT. Yeah, I did see where you said 'Occam's Razor' as if that was some kind of answer. Please cite Occam's Razor and tell me how that means you win.
For the purposes of this discussion my interests in understanding the rationale for your interpretation of Genesis, and how that interpretation stacks up to what is actually written. I am not pushing any alternative view other than as a probe against that interpretation.
If you are not interested in helping me with that, so be it. This is your thread. But I thought my questions were on topic. If they aren't then I can stop asking them here. I'll pursue my interest elsewhere.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2016 5:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2016 8:49 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 159 of 1482 (783317)
05-04-2016 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by ICANT
05-04-2016 8:49 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
If that is actually what you are interested in then why not take what I wrote in Message 154 and go line by line and tell me where I am mis-understanding what is written.
I have been exceedingly clear about where I find your reply lacking. I'm not going to play the 'tell me where the math I learned in sixth grade is wrong" game again. I have found plenty of sources that discuss Jeremiah 4:23-4:26 and other verses from several perspectives and which discuss the implication for the ruin-reconstruction hypothesis. If you choose to address those issues with the group, I'll see it when you get to it. If not, then I just won't get your take on it.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2016 8:49 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 05-05-2016 12:23 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 1482 (783488)
05-05-2016 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ICANT
05-05-2016 12:23 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
You have not been remotely clear about anything other than your disdane for God's Word.
Really? Not sharing or adopting your personal interpretation of Genesis is disdain for God's Word?
I have told you in detail exactly what it is you say that I fail to find convincing. In particular, I have told you that your application of Occam's razor appears to be bogus and that most people interpret Jeremiah to be warning of the future. Your response was that since Jeremiah was in the past, then Occam's razor suggests he must be talking about the past. That's inane. Would that logic have worked at the time Jeremiah actually spoke? Nope.
Did I make up that argument. No, that argument is easily found just about everywhere this topic is discussed. It is hard to find rebuttals to it, but I am sure they exist. I'm also sure that what you have posted does not cut the grade.
Get a grip brother. If I have displayed any disdain it is for your tactics. I am very interested in God's word, and I am pursuing my interest in Ruin-Restoration theology elsewhere. It is your presentation that I find lacking and full of your own typical evasion.
I accept that your belief is sincere and I have never doubted your love for Gods' word. But none of that guarantees that you are right about anything. This is my last post in this thread. You are welcome to have the last insult.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ICANT, posted 05-05-2016 12:23 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 7:41 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 1482 (783522)
05-05-2016 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
05-05-2016 8:09 PM


Re: Implications of Gap Theory
But this is how many doctrines are constructed, the most familiar one being the construction of the Trinity from dozens of different references to Father, Son and Holy Ghost throughout the Old and New Testaments
The method of construction you describe is extremely problematic. It is in fact exactly the way both YEC and Gap theologists come up with incompatible views of the Bible. This very discussion recommends against proceeding as you suggest.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 8:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 10:04 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 257 of 1482 (787332)
07-10-2016 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by arachnophilia
07-01-2016 8:41 PM


Re: translations
ICANT writes:
Are you saying it would be simple for him to learn a completely new script system to replace the one he had been studying and using for nearly a hundred years?
I don't think so.
arachnophilia writes:
yes, learning a new script is trivial compared to learning a new language. surely you ran into this in your hebrew classes; how long did you spend studying the alef-bet?
Perhaps another illustration of this principle would be Morse Code. How difficult is it to learn to read a morse code version of any english message? Answer: Not very.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by arachnophilia, posted 07-01-2016 8:41 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 1482 (814767)
07-12-2017 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
07-12-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Perhaps the actual text from Genesis 3:22-24, KJV would stop some of the Creationism (i.e. "testa-lying") in telling the story. Not that you are doing that... And not that this point has not been covered in many past discussion.
quote:
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life
So apparently, the Tree of Life could make Adam immortal even after the Tree of Knowledge incident. That was the impetus for God driving Adam out of the garden. At least that is what Genesis quoted God as saying.
Yet there was no apparent restriction on Adam from eating from the Tree of Life prior to disobeying God. One might conclude a few things
1) Immortality ended with the placing of the angel with the flaming sword.
2) The serpent deceived Eve with something very close to the truth.
3) The idea that eating of the Tree of Life after Adam sinned would have been fatal is completely non-Biblical.
4) Discussion elsewhere regarding death entering the world with this incident can be reconciled with the text only through the use of metaphoric speaking.
Almost certainly that latter point describes how Paul spoke, and his contemporaries, who most likely were not prone to interpreting Genesis literally would well have understood. Historically we know that the Rabbinic Tradition of literal translation is from a period hundreds of years after Paul lived. I know it is popular to ignore the fact that Paul and Jesus were Jewish, but such ignorance is simply not reasonable.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 07-12-2017 12:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 07-12-2017 6:18 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 312 of 1482 (815046)
07-14-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tom Larkin
07-14-2017 6:01 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
The scientific data simply indicates that we are all descended from one man and one woman, who lived approximately 90k -150k BCE (BC is an oxymoron, there was no time before Christ).
This is not correct. The scientific data has identified the time period for the youngest common female ancestor descended only along a line of strictly female ancestors. This is unlikely to have been the first woman alive. Similarly, a corresponding time for the most recent common male descended along a strictly male line of ancestors.
And the timing is such that the two ancestors would not have been contemporaries. Short summary. That's not Adam and Eve, nor is it a finding inconsistent with evolution.
As for BC being an oxymoron. Nope. Even if your understanding is that Jesus is an eternal being, the Bible does describe a date for his birth as a man. BC refers to that date.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-14-2017 6:01 AM Tom Larkin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 4:06 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 321 of 1482 (815165)
07-17-2017 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 8:06 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
I have begun to study Hebrew to develop a better understanding of the Old Testament and the language of Genesis is pretty basic, it is difficult to screw up the translation (One point of interest is that the word for God, Elohim, is actually a plural word).
In my opinion, a study of Hebrew culture and Bible traditions is at least as important as understanding the exact meaning(s) of words. My opinion is not shared by most fundamentalists who often insist that ancient Hebrews were simply wrong about the written and oral traditions that they actually created; not just wrong about the Messianic traditions, but well off target regarding essentially all of the Old Testament.
Yes, learning the language is an aspect of the culture, but it really is not the be all and end all of trying to understand what the Bible is saying.
The alternative is to simply go along with what various Christian traditions and commentators have said. That is the path that most fundamentalists take. If you have an issue with that, you are going to be told that getting a different answer means that you are not being spiritually guided to your answer.
Yes, Jesus does cite the Old Testament. Jesus also used a mixture of personal experience, parables, and stories in his own ministry. His citations mean that scripture is valuable for teaching and correction. But they don't necessarily endorse any story as historical.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 8:06 PM Tom Larkin has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 330 of 1482 (815297)
07-18-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by ringo
07-18-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Actually no. If you read it without any preconceived notions, it just sounds like two references to the same people. Genesis 2 is more of a close-up. That's standard storytelling.
What you say is logical, but even ignoring Tom Larkin's interpretation, what you say does not seem to be the consensus opinion of most of the folk here. Based on that, I cannot say that your interpretation is "the" natural one.
I don't go as far as Larkin to suggest that Adam and Eve were not according to the Bible, the first humans but like you, I think Genesis 2 is more of a close-up. Most of the other folk here believe that Genesis 1 and 2 are simply incompatible stories.
As for what reading is more natural, I don't have a strong opinion. I can remember at an early age being confused about all of those other people described in Genesis 2 that seemed to be pre-Adam and Eve, but I have long since discarded that interpretation as unlikely.
Edited by NoNukes, : Language tweaked a bit.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 12:07 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 351 of 1482 (815843)
07-25-2017 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by PaulK
07-23-2017 1:32 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Nevermind. I think I see what "effective population of 5" is supposed to mean
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by PaulK, posted 07-23-2017 1:32 AM PaulK has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 352 of 1482 (815949)
07-26-2017 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by GDR
07-24-2017 8:30 PM


Re: The Bigger Picture
Jar, Phat, NoNukes, and Ringo all in agreement. Solar eclipse next month across the US. These must be signs...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by GDR, posted 07-24-2017 8:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 436 of 1482 (827745)
01-31-2018 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 429 by ICANT
01-30-2018 8:26 PM


Re: Expanding
All you need is an assumption that the universe that existed at the point you mentioned and did not exist 1 billionth of a second earlier by some miracle began to exist.
I know better than to ask. But do you have any clue what evidence scientist cite for the BBT? I see here that you just label certain concepts assumptions, but do you know what the heck you are talking about? I ask this because you have a track record here of getting science wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 8:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 9:25 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 437 of 1482 (827752)
01-31-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Pressie
01-31-2018 5:12 AM


Re: Creation
This thread is in the Science Forums. Please refrain from using Thor in this thread.
Surely it is okay to cite the Bible for what it says in the Accuracy and Inerrancy thread, particularly when someone claims that the text is in error.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Pressie, posted 01-31-2018 5:12 AM Pressie has not replied

  
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