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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1146 of 1352 (812730)
06-19-2017 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1143 by Faith
06-19-2017 4:58 PM


Re: Evidence for the Flood revisited
I already answered this a million times. Tectonic force from side and below pushes Supergroup strata into a tilt up against the Tapeats which is the point where the forces most closely balance out, the force from above being the weight of sedimentary strata three miles deep.
But the GC Supergroup and the Vishnu (etc,) are not deformed to the same degree nor in the same direction. What's with that?
The tectonic force pushed the lower rocks some distance beneath the Tapeats, also pushing the strata above upward, causing the mounded shape all the way to the top, (which cracked the uppermost strata above the canyon area and caused the formation of the canyon by receding Flood waters rushing into the craqcks, taking a lot of the broken-up upper strata with it.)
Why is the upper package of rocks not affected? What forces are you balancing?
SIMULTANEOUSLY the magma was released from below into the lower rocks, forming the granite and the schist in an intense pressure chamber, which was probably mitigated by the Flood water somehow(?), all while the horizontal movement was going on, which kept the effects confined beneath the GU.
But that is my question. You said that all magmatism is related to a single event. Why is there no connection between the Zoroaster Granite and the basaltic dikes that penetrate above the GC?
Already described that a million times, so if you want something else you're going to have to be clearer about what you want.
Well, for one, you could show us your evidence for abrasion at the contact. You have repeatedly avoided this question.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1143 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 4:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1152 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 12:19 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1147 of 1352 (812731)
06-19-2017 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1145 by 14174dm
06-19-2017 7:47 PM


Re: Evidence for the Flood revisited
How is the lower strata to move without the upper strata moving? Why didn't the upper strata just ride along with the lower strata?
The massive weight of the upper strata means there would have to be enormous forces pushing on just the edge of the upper strata to hold it in place while the lower strata moved.
Here's an experiment. Put a cookie sheet on the table. Spread a dish towel on top of the cookie sheet but leave part of the cookie sheet exposed on the right side. Put your left hand on the cookie sheet right next to the towel. Holding your left hand still pull the cookie sheet to the right like your lower strata moving.
What happens to the towel? It is pulled along with the cookie sheet until your left hand causes it to bunch up.
Now do you see the wavy layers in the rock around the Grand Canyon with flat layers underneath?
Exactly the point. If the normal forces (gravity) are so great at the bottom of the Paleozoic sequence, why would there be any detachment from the basement rocks? The key would be some kind of evidence for detachement which Faith refuses to address.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1145 by 14174dm, posted 06-19-2017 7:47 PM 14174dm has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1151 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 11:58 PM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1148 of 1352 (812732)
06-19-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Faith
06-19-2017 6:24 PM


Re: Evidence for the Flood revisited
Are you really honestly misunderstanding or are you doing it intentionally? I really can't see how you could misunderstand all the stuff you've been misunderstanding. Or this.
It was the BOULDER that didn't move, sheesh. It was a boulder, so obviously it had been separated from its source for pete's sake. Here's the picture: The sliding of the lower rocks up against the Tapeats severed a piece of the Shinumo (there's also another story to be told about the quartzite monadnock but I'll leave that for now) -- the boulder was severed from its source and embedded in the Tapeats sand, and then the Shinumo was moved a quarter mile away.
But you have not given us evidence of how the boulder was separated. What structural evidence do you have? Was it sheared off, or did it roll into place during erosion at the unconformity? If the former, there should be evidence to that effect, some kind of a shear plane or fragment trail, or something.
You are not being clear.
Perhaps the upper strata moved some also but... It would have been the tectonic lateral force causing all the movement and that would mean the lower moved but not the upper, whch was, however, raised by the upward force caused by the tilting of the lower strata.
But you have exactly zero evidence that this happened.
On the other hand, we have seen evidence that boulders can roll out onto a beach and we know that the Shinumo Island was shedding talus blocks into the Tapeats sea from other locations. What is your evidence that it was tectonically separated?
What I'm not getting here is how the boulder could be sheared off of the Shinumo without any evidence and yet the Shinumo 'monadnock' still exists. Shouldn't that tectonic offset also affect the top of the Shinumo outcropping in the canyon?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 6:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1153 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 12:33 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1149 of 1352 (812733)
06-19-2017 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1142 by Faith
06-19-2017 4:06 PM


Re: Evidence for the Flood revisited
The faulting and the movement all occurred so close together that the movement cut off the faults as it abraded the top of the tilted Supergroup. If it did manage to penetrate above the GU it would be found a quarter mile away from the Supergroup.
But if the Supergroup were being faulted (after the entire section was deposited) Where did the rocks go? They were tilted upward to the right in the diagram, so where did the extensions of those strata go? Those faults had to go to the surface at whatever time they occurred, didn't they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1142 by Faith, posted 06-19-2017 4:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1154 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 12:37 AM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(2)
Message 1155 of 1352 (812799)
06-20-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1153 by Faith
06-20-2017 12:33 AM


Re: Evidence for the Flood revisited
I expect the violence of movement between the two levels to suggest enough force to break off a piece of the Shinumo.
And yet leave no evidence of shearing.
Right...
Faith, I can't possibly respond to the nonsense in all of these posts, but will just make a few comments. Basically, everything you say is a fantasy. It is a story that you've made up over the years full of ad hoc explanations, wishful thinking and outright denial. It is the kind of thinking that make me glad that I rejected religion a long time ago.
I'm giving you my theory, which is supported by a ton of simple reasoning about how physical things work.
No. You have not shown an ounce of evidence. Reasoning, yes, but fallacious reasoning.
You have no evidence that the unconformity has experienced shearing. You have no evidence that the igneous rocks below the unconformity are directly related to the ones above. Everything happened 'for some reason', or isn't important, or is just denied by you.
How about the sheer absurdity of your theory about a "Tapeats sea" with a "Shinumo island" for starters?
Sure, and the Mediterranean Sea is an absurdity. The island of Cyprus is just an absurdity. All we get from you is this mantra of "absurdity!" without any explanation except some vague concept that geological time doesn't exist.
The nonsense of the time periods which couldn't possibly have existed bounded by flat rocks as they are. Start there.
We've started there several times and you have no explanation for your reasoning other than you just don't believe it.
I see it, why don't you?
Lots of people 'see things' that aren't there.
Paradigm blindness.
See? That's it... That's your argument. Instead of providing evidence, you make complaints.
Just a kjowledge of the flat flat Tapeats and the stratified Shinumo ought to be enough to dispel any idea of seas and islands...
But why? What knowledge are you talking about?
What knowledge of the Tapeats do you have? Do you have any idea of how stratigraphy forms? I thought you understood Walther's Law a long time ago, but you really have no concept of time and change. So, I'd say that it's your knowledge that is incomplete.
Part broke off for some reason -- softer for some reason?
"For some reason", "for some reason" ...
Why not just say that God did it for some reason, perhaps to make us crazy.
-- the other part was harder and cut through the layers vertically as the movement occurred.
Well, then there should be evidence of this 'cutting through'. Where is it?
I think the tectonic pressure was still pushing up the strata but the quartzite was hard enough to avoid being sheared off by the movement, except for that one boulder, so a long section of it cut through the strata above.
What forces?
What caused the forces? What direction were they oriented? Where were they applied?
Why were they not uniform?
Exactly where these are located would provide more clues.
If you had 'tons of evidence' you would already know.
Perhaps the distances traveled make a difference. Perhaps there is evidence buried deeper in the sandstone.
Okay, well let us know when you find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1153 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 12:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1157 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 9:43 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1156 of 1352 (812800)
06-20-2017 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1154 by Faith
06-20-2017 12:37 AM


Re: Evidence for the Flood revisited
It went somewhere "off screen" ...
"Somewhere offscreen". Now that's a great explanation.
Probably "for some reason", yes?
... though I think there is enough rubble scattered around the canyon to account for it,
Oh, good. Then maybe you can show us the evidence for this.
... and I still like my idea that the Vishnu schist incorporates a lot of it although you have claimed it didn't.
Well, if it did, there should be evidence, yes?
Oh, right! Those paradigm conflicted geologists are too incompetent to see it.
Don't confuse your ideas with facts.
How about we stick to things that we know happen? Like erosion. Like serial mountain building. Like cross-cutting structures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by Faith, posted 06-20-2017 12:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1180 of 1352 (813163)
06-23-2017 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1174 by ICANT
06-23-2017 7:43 PM


Re: Ducking, dodging and weaving (same as always)
The Russians got water in their 7 mile deep hole they drilled.
Yes, they found chemically bound water. Okay, so how do you extract that water from the deep crust and mantle, bring it to the surface for a year and then where does it go?
So I would think you could hide a lot of water in the 5 mile deep holes the oil companies drill and get water.
I believe you are talking about brine here. Pretty toxic stuff. Just imagine if you flooded the earth with that stuff.
They use separator's to separate the oil and water. Which is under a lot of pressure at that depth.
Exactly. So did God have his separators running?
But you don't have to go 400 miles to find water that is trapped in rock. Water is in an abundant state you can find enough in the asthenosphere to fill the present oceans over 7 times.
First, water is not a state.
And you need to explain to us how you extract that water and channel it to the fountains of the deep.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1174 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2017 7:43 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1182 by jar, posted 06-24-2017 7:32 AM edge has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1216 of 1352 (813432)
06-27-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1213 by ICANT
06-27-2017 12:20 PM


Re: Ducking, dodging and weaving (same as always)
Good then discuss it with edge.
Okay, so you say that there was no eruption. Fine.
But you want to compare the fountains of the deep to the black smokers springs at the mid-ocean ridges, yes?
Well, those are not exactly causing a flood right now, are they? What do you suppose the would look like if they were actually causing a rise in sea level on the scale of your biblical flood?
And regardless of the intensity, such fountains should leave some kind of evidence of where they are/were. Where is that and how do they look different from the modern springs?
By the way, you do know where the water that 'erupts' from the black smokers comes from, do you not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1213 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 12:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1221 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 2:00 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1225 of 1352 (813453)
06-27-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1221 by ICANT
06-27-2017 2:00 PM


Re: Ducking, dodging and weaving (same as always)
No I say they are like the smokers.
So, how are they different?
I would envision a huge body of water trapped in a carven and that being released into the ocean just the large spring just off the coast of Hawaii and the one off the coast of Jacksonville Fl.
So, what happens to those caverns? Where are they?
They are fed by the aquifer, the ones that opened would have been trapped just as oil is trapped in the ground and would have been under great pressure.
What is your evidence for such caverns filled with water under great pressure?
Do you know where the water comes from at these springs?
Depending of the size of the faucet God installed (pun intended) would determine how the water rushed out.
If they are large, you should be able to show us one. Where is it?
But we have not yet determined how much water we needed to accomplish the covering of the land mass that existed in Genesis chapter 7.
Not important. It's a huge amount.
But hey, it's your model. Tell us.
Neither do we know how many of the fountains of the deep there was that opened up. That would determine how much water was available.
Well, then, you have a lot of work to do.
The water rises at the rate of about 9 feet per hr at the Bay of Fundy without tearing everything apart. In fact from day to day you will not notice any change.
So, in a day, we wouldn't notice sea level rising over 200 feet?
But whatever depth need there would be 40 24 hr days to accomplish the task. At 24 hours a day times 9 feet per hour times 40 days we would have 8,640 feet of water.
And?
If I remember correctly JonF said there was about enough water available to cover the earth with 8,856 feet of water if the earth was a perfect sphere.
Show us a time in the history of the earth when it was a smooth and perfect sphere.
Why would you expect to find any evidence of such fountains when the dry land mass was all in one place. If you did what would it look like. As far as I know the Cayman trench could be the result of a lot of water being released into the ocean and then later the overburden collapsing and ending up 2 miles deep. Maybe that is what it would look like.
Not according to seismic profiles.
C'mon, give us something concrete. This is your theory, support it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1221 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 2:00 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1243 of 1352 (813586)
06-28-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1231 by CRR
06-28-2017 12:41 AM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
Catastrophic plate tectonics during the flood year seems more likely.
That's not saying much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 12:41 AM CRR has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1256 of 1352 (813874)
07-01-2017 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1253 by ICANT
07-01-2017 1:53 AM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
Well I know the land mass was all in one place at one time Genesis 1:9 tells me that.
Yeah, 200 million years ago. I'm sure that the Bible was talking about Pangea.
And how could it 'all be in one place'? That doesn't really make sense.
Genesis 10:25 tells me that in the days of Peleg the earth was divided.
So, being 'divided' means plate tectonics?
Why was the 'earth' divided and not the land?
The continents are still moving but they are slowing down.
You may be accidentally correct here, but the evidence says that it has been going on for over a billion years and is likely to continue for a long time yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2017 1:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1259 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 9:23 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1268 of 1352 (814041)
07-03-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1259 by ICANT
07-02-2017 9:23 PM


Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
And just how do you know that Pangea existed 200 million year ago?
Physical evidence.
I was referring to dry land as there was wet land under all the ocean.
Then it wasn't land, was it?
But actually the water was gathered to one place and left the dry land.
How was it 'gathered'?
I don't think of it being plate tectonics. I think of it as a puzzle together then moved to the different parts.
But we have evidence for plate tectonics.
You don't have to believe it but that was no accident.
When it comes to YEC cognition, I consider it to be an accident.
The plate movement is slowing, that is a fact.
On a scale of billions of years, I'll go with that. For the last 300 million years it's been variable, but essentially of the same order of magnitude.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2017 9:23 PM ICANT has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 1315 of 1352 (814853)
07-13-2017 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1309 by Faith
07-13-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Strata (3)
The finer you draw your time scale lines the more all you are talking about is microevolution within a Kind, which makes all claims to any particular fossil order pure fantasy. You can claim order on the level of reptile to mammal, but not on the level of species of trilobites.
But the 'microevolution' of trilobites still expresses the passage of time, does it not?
Are you saying that this microevolution was just another rapid event that occurred within a year? If so, you must be a super-evolutionist, yes?
And why does that make the fossil order a fantasy? Can you show us where it was wrong?
Why is glossopleura always above olenellus in the stratigraphic record? Wouldn't a flood mix them up with crabs and clams?
As for volcanism, my understanding is that most of it would have occurred after the Flood, at the time of the tectonic splitting of the continents.
And what is your understanding based on?
Can you tell us how life would survive on a planet where all of the volcanism occurred in, essentially, 2000 years?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 7:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1319 by Faith, posted 07-13-2017 1:21 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1317 of 1352 (814874)
07-13-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1312 by Stile
07-13-2017 10:09 AM


Re: Thinkity Thinking about Living in a Depositional Environment
...
The landscape is still on-going, with creatures and trees and plants living and dying. It's just not going on like this over our chunk of lead anymore. It's going on like that "50 miles inland" and beyond that, now.
The "landscape" above our chunk of lead is now a marine-scape (I don't know the word?) it has fish and other ocean-creatures living above it now.
The fish swim around, and continue with their lives and deaths and off-spring, dealing with the extra inch of sediment every 100 years.
Our chunk of lead is now buried 80 feet below the bottom of the ocean, 50 miles from shore.
I would add that the rising sea-level is a continent-wide process, resulting in a continental-scale set of strata.
By the way, this is Walther's Law in effect, something that Faith claims to understand.
How about 'seascape'?
ETA: Also note that the specimen is not of the same age as the enclosing sediments, but it was deposited at the same time.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1312 by Stile, posted 07-13-2017 10:09 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1318 of 1352 (814875)
07-13-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1316 by dwise1
07-13-2017 10:32 AM


Re: Strata (2)
Oh Jeebus! Are you still blathering such absolute nonsense?
LEARN SOMETHING!! And try to THINK for once in your life!
Tiresome, isn't it?
Honestly, "evos" have to be some of the most patient people in the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1316 by dwise1, posted 07-13-2017 10:32 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
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