Creation

A great example of utter nonsense.The Trinity concept developed over many centuries and was only created as a weapon to use against folk that held different interpretations.And you are correct, it is NOT a concept found in the Bible, any of the Bibles, except through quote mining and taking passages out of context.It was then later codified by several extra biblical conferences, first as a duality and then only later as a trinity. Remember the Holy Spirit was not included and even now only gets included based on the really slim fact that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was claimed to be unforgivable where blasphemy of Jesus or the God character were forgivable.You are correct though. Much of Christian doctrine is supported only by taking material totally out of context.AbE:Let me add that your quote is a perfect example of the difference between Science and Theology.Any scientist that did what is described in your quote would be fired, likely never be employable as a scientist in any field, all of his prior work would immediately become tainted and require complete reevaluation and likely discarded.Edited by jar, : see AbE:

Let me address your addition. No Faith, it does not demonstrate any such thing and certainly does not indicate God has a clue what we do. It does indicate that people can and do dishonestly select data that supports their prior conclusions while rejecting data from the same set that refutes those positions. As I pointed out above, there is a basic culture of honesty in Science that seems totally missing when it comes to apologetics and dogma. Any scientist that behaved that way would get fired and rightly so.

Of course there were reasons; the goal was to declare political opponents as heretics. That was sufficient reason. And it was not clear since it took nearly four hundred years for the concept to get codified as I have pointed out to you before Faith. The Trinity was not even included in the original version of the Nicene Creed. But it really is vague as I have shown you the Holy spirit included based only on two unrelated passages; being included in the baptismal forms and based on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit being unforgivable.Remember Faith, despite your beliefs there are still non-Trinitarian Christians today. Nonsense Faith, God could not even design the Bible so that all the Canons recognized the same books.There is no coherent whole to any Bible. That is simply yet another unsupported assertion refuted by the facts and reality.

We are moving way away from the topic Faith but if you would like to discuss the Trinity concept yet again, start a thread on it. I will happily present my case.

There were several variations on the Trinity concept around that time; for example of God and Word and Wisdom as well as the Gnostic concept which had the Divine emanating Christ and Wisdom (and other emanations as well).The point is that what we see is an evolving dogma driven as much by politics as theology.AbE:I tried to point some of that out in another thread Message 84 of The Marketing Of Christianity.Edited by jar, : add links to earlier post

But that is not what jar actually says.jar says that the two stories, Genesis 1 and the story in Genesis 2&3 are two separate unrelated tales written by different cultures at entirely different times and unrelated to Moses if Moses even existed and that creation in the stories is nothing but a plot device like the two different God characters and that what is created in Genesis 1 is the justification for how the Hebrews will determine days, weeks and a Sabbath.Let's get that right.

Too funny. So called Biblical Christians seem to be able to make up all kinds of ways to get around the FACT that the Bible is filled with factual errors, contradictions, fantasy and just plain silly stuff.But the fact remains that the two creation myths are still factually wrong, period.It really is that simple.

Too funny Faith.No where does that passage mention Adam and nowhere in the Genesis 2 & 3 fable is it even hinted that Death was because of Adam or really anyone but the God character.Why do so called "Biblical Christians" always make shit up and add it to the Bible?

Learn to read. From Adam to Moses.And of course, the author of Romans is simply wrong and misrepresenting what is actually written in the Genesis 2 & 3 myth. And I said, Christians have been making shit up to explain the contradictions found in the Bible stories for almost 2000 years.An honest reading of the Genesis 2 & 3 myth shows death certainly existed even before Adam was created.Paul, if Paul actually wrote Romans, was simply wrong or making shit up.

And I pointed out that no honest reader of the Bible can provide any support for what Paul claimed.Paul (or the author of Romans) is a classic example of apologists simply making shit up which is the actual point we were discussing.In the creation myth found in Genesis 2 & 3 is there or is there not a Tree of Life and a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?If there is a Tree of Life (that the god character feared Adam and Eve would eat from) then Death already existed.It really is that simple.Death may have entered through the acts of one person but that person would be the God character.

Except, of course, the Bible itself says you are just making shit up.The Tree of Life existed only because death also existed. If death did not exist then creating a Tree of Life was just stupid.So death exited, it did not come into the world because of anything Adam did.Paul, like you, was just making shit up.There was no Fall. The Bible itself says you are just making shit up.Adam & Eve did not get run out of the Garden of Eden because they were evil, in fact they got run out of the Garden of Eden for becoming more like God and the God character being afraid they would also become immortal. I know you are simply parroting the Part Line but unfortunately reality says you are simply wrong.That is the issue with both of the Creation Myths. Not only do they contradict each other (which is why folk have been trying to find any possible way to make them align and always fail) but they are also both simply wrong about the actual order of creation period.As an honest devout Christian I simply have to acknowledge the fact that the two stories are mutually exclusive, that neither of them are factually correct or even anywhere near factually correct, that even the God character in the stories are described as two entirely different personalities and that they are simply the result of ignorant authors.

Absolutely. Jesus was certainly never a Christian. Paul was most likely still a Jew but a proselytizing Jew, one who believed that people could become a Jew by choice as well as birth. Paul, and Paul's writings, show an evolution of a faith; an acknowledgement of his early conversion (and likely pretty common set of beliefs among the early followers) beliefs were simply wrong and so a changing set of writings over time.But the fact as written in the story show that the author of Genesis 2 & 3 understood that death existed before Adam and Eve. Also Paul often used known stories as a base for creating a broader narrative.The editors and redactors and Committee of Canon are also essential to the broader narrative.Why did they include two mutually exclusive and contradictory creation tales and why put the much younger creation tale before the much older creation tale?I believe those are actually valid and important questions.At the time of Jesus the order and acceptance of the Torah was fairly well established BUT there really is a major division on how the works were seen.At the time of Jesus the Torah (including the oral tradition and the interpretations) were understood as describing a way of life of a Peoples. The stories were seen in a far different light than what modern Christianity portrays; they were seen as folk tales, as stories meant to show the origin of different groups, tribes, nations; stories that outlined behavior and community, as legislature, as tribal genealogy, as markers of identification and separation from other societies.Within that context the creation stories and their ordering begin to make sense.The first creation myth (which is far later and more mature than the earlier tale) involves what really separated the Jews from the rest of society, the Sacred Week of six work days and then a Sabbath, a Holy Day. But it also describes a far more mature vision of God, and all powerful overarching God, something supremely competent that creates simply by an act of will without hesitation. But that God is also aloof, separate from the Creation and has no direct contact with what has been created.The much, much, much older tale found in Genesis 2 & 3 also works on multiple levels. It is a classic "Just So" story that hearkens back to a Hunter Gatherer life style and explains some of the things that set humans apart from all the other animals. It explains why we fear snakes, why childbirth seems more painful for humans than the other animals, why we don't live forever, why we farm instead of just eat what grows naturally, why we have a society based on laws and rules and importantly, why men take precedence over women. But the story also shows a different God, and earlier more primitive God; one that has human characteristics, is friendly, often unsure, learning by doing, sometimes fearful but also approachable, caring, but also powerful and controlling an army.By including both stories the order begins with the single most important factor, the Sacred Week and then goes on to begin the narrative about the creation of the Hebrews and also begins with the picture of an overarching God and then allows the story to show that God evolving along side the People.It is only the Fundamental Christian need to make the stories "God Breathed" and to pretend they are a single narrative instead of an anthology of anthologies that requires the machinations of the legion a apologists.Paul is marketing a new religion that he and a few others are creating. Neither Christianity as it has evolved or the Rabbinic Literal Tradition would be anything likely to be recognizable to either Jesus or Paul.

Jesus is not mentioned or referenced anywhere in the Old Testament.And both of the Creation myths are still factually incorrect.

I am aware of all the so called prophecies about Jesus that some Christian groups try to market but so far no one has ever been able to support them in an honest fashion. Even the so called fulfillment prophecies in the New Testament are not honest examples of fulfilled prophecy but rather created mythology and even state they are faked fulfillment.We have had many, many threads here on "Biblical Prophecy" and so far it has all been "Biblical Perversion". If you wish to start yet another thread on Biblical Prophecy then we can go through the exercise yet again.On the Creation myths, not only are all the orders incorrect but in reality none of the living critters mentioned in the stories have ever been found in the evidence from early lifeforms and in fact all the evidence shows that none of the critters mentioned in the tales existed until millions of years after the beginning of the earth while most of the astral things existed for billions of years BEFORE the Earth. The Earth was not created in the beginning but rather about 10,000,000,000 years after the beginning.If you read through my posts in this thread I have outlined the logic associated with my conclusions. In particular Message 296 deals with the Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 tales. To read just one persons posts go to the first page and in the list of participants click on a name. It will sort out all the posts from that person in the topic.As a Christian I believe we need to begin being honest about what the Bible actually says instead of trying to make it fit what we want it to say.

We can't know the mind of God, whatever that word salad means. I have no idea how anyone could have fellowship with God or what that word salad means. What our relationship with other men and women should be is simple though, Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. Do unto other as you would have others do unto you.That part is really simple. Hold a door for someone who is encumbered. Take the grocery carts back to the collection area. Bring in your neighbors trash can as you get yours. Kneel down when talking to kids so you are at their eye level. Say good morning and hello. Smile at strangers. Stop and listen when others talk and do not pass the Talking Feather widdershins. But of course it does not eliminate the fact they are both factually false, simply wrong. They are just fictional. But I don't reject the Bible; I reject the perversion of the Bible marketed by so many Christians including your book. By trying to pretend they are historical or factual in anyway diminishes and perverts the actual value of what the stories were meant to teach.