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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
RAZD
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Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 916 of 934 (814261)
07-05-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 913 by Taq
07-05-2017 12:45 PM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
Before mutations: 100% brown allele
After mutations: 10% black fur, 90% brown fur

You are saying that after the mutations there is less genetic diversity?

And ... black is dominant ... so, the Hardy-Weinberg equation gives us:

p^2 + 2pq + q^2

where p is one allele and q the other allele, so pq is heterozygous and the others are homozygous,

The equation with {br} = 0.9 (making {BL} = .01) is

(0.9)^2 + 2(0.9)(0.1) + (0.1)^2
= 0.81 + 0.18 + 0.01

and 81% are tan (homozygous) while 19% are black (1% homozygous and 18% heterozygous)

and ~1 in 5 mice can utilize the lava bed habitat, and of those ~1 in 4 offspring will be tan and need to escape back to the tan soil habitat.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 913 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 12:45 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 917 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 3:10 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 921 by CRR, posted 07-06-2017 6:59 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 924 by caffeine, posted 07-07-2017 1:53 PM RAZD has responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 917 of 934 (814273)
07-05-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by RAZD
07-05-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
RAZD writes:

And ... black is dominant ... so, the Hardy-Weinberg equation gives us:


That was more of a guesstimate. The actual number is probably a bit lower since the black basalt outcroppings make up a small percentage of their overall range.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2017 1:26 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 918 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2017 6:10 AM Taq has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 918 of 934 (814303)
07-06-2017 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 917 by Taq
07-05-2017 3:10 PM


SRe: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
So 90% of statistics used in arguments are made up on the spot?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 917 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 3:10 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 919 by Pressie, posted 07-06-2017 8:11 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 923 by Taq, posted 07-07-2017 10:59 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Pressie
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Posts: 1692
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 919 of 934 (814312)
07-06-2017 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 918 by RAZD
07-06-2017 6:10 AM


Re: SRe: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
RAZD writes:

So 90% of statistics used in arguments are made up on the spot?

Not all. At the Uni I'm involved in around 80% of all the students who start studying Chemistry 1 don't even get basic degrees at the end. That's been relatively constant for around 100 years. So, when I look at the first year fresh faces trying chemistry 1 on the first day, I can tell them that around 80% of them won't ever get a degree. I ask them to study, study, study and change the stats.

Stats are not always useless. It just prepares people for reality.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 918 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2017 6:10 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
CRR
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Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 920 of 934 (814329)
07-06-2017 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 870 by Taq
06-30-2017 11:56 AM


Re: MC1R gene and the agouti-signaling protein
"In the laboratory mouse, loss-of-function mutations at Mc1r are recessive and result in light color, whereas gain-of-function alleles are dominant and result in dark color (16)."

I was talking about loss of function between the MC1R gene and the agouti-signaling protein.
They are talking gain/loss of function as it relates to coat colour..
Dominant/recessive does not determine gain/loss of functional information. A normal light switch can be turned on or off. A broken light switch can result in a light permanently on (dominant) or permanently off (recessive); but the switch is broken in either case. Similarly with the MC1R gene.

Edited by CRR, : Changed subtitle


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 Message 870 by Taq, posted 06-30-2017 11:56 AM Taq has responded

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CRR
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Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 921 of 934 (814330)
07-06-2017 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by RAZD
07-05-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Hardy-Weinberg
and ~1 in 5 mice can utilize the lava bed habitat, and of those ~1 in 4 offspring will be tan and need to escape back to the tan soil habitat.

They probably should be considered as two separate populations with gene flow between them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2017 1:26 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
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Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 922 of 934 (814345)
07-07-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 920 by CRR
07-06-2017 6:49 PM


Re: MC1R gene and the agouti-signaling protein
CRR writes:

I was talking about loss of function between the MC1R gene and the agouti-signaling protein.
They are talking gain/loss of function as it relates to coat colour..
Dominant/recessive does not determine gain/loss of functional information. A normal light switch can be turned on or off. A broken light switch can result in a light permanently on (dominant) or permanently off (recessive); but the switch is broken in either case. Similarly with the MC1R gene.

You are claiming that any change, no matter what it is, is a broken switch. That is just denial.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 920 by CRR, posted 07-06-2017 6:49 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 923 of 934 (814346)
07-07-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 918 by RAZD
07-06-2017 6:10 AM


Re: SRe: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
RAZD writes:

So 90% of statistics used in arguments are made up on the spot?

+/- 1.8%. Don't forget the standard deviation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 918 by RAZD, posted 07-06-2017 6:10 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
caffeine
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Posts: 1316
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 924 of 934 (814354)
07-07-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by RAZD
07-05-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
And ... black is dominant ... so, the Hardy-Weinberg equation gives us:

The alleles should only be expected to be in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium in the absence of selection. Since both phenotypes are under selection, it's not relevant. The proportions will depend on the extent of the habitats that select for each colour morph.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2017 1:26 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by RAZD, posted 07-07-2017 7:37 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 925 of 934 (814356)
07-07-2017 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 924 by caffeine
07-07-2017 1:53 PM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
Guess I gots some readin to do.

Thanks


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by caffeine, posted 07-07-2017 1:53 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 926 by dwise1, posted 07-08-2017 12:17 AM RAZD has responded

  
dwise1
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Posts: 2866
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 926 of 934 (814357)
07-08-2017 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 925 by RAZD
07-07-2017 7:37 PM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
Same here. Like when I retire at the end of the year.

At many colleges and universities in the USA we have the Osher Lifelong Learning Institutes (OLLI) program for adults 50+. They draw on the members' own expertise for their own classes and special lectures, plus members get buy parking on campus and are usually able to audit the regular university courses. However, locally all the OLLI courses and lectures are during regular work hours, so you pretty much have to be retired to participate.

So I see auditing a population genetics course in my future ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 925 by RAZD, posted 07-07-2017 7:37 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 927 by Coyote, posted 07-08-2017 12:35 AM dwise1 has responded
 Message 929 by RAZD, posted 07-08-2017 8:50 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Coyote
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Posts: 5905
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 927 of 934 (814358)
07-08-2017 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 926 by dwise1
07-08-2017 12:17 AM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
...we have the Osher Lifelong Learning Institutes (OLLI) program for adults 50+

Good program! I've lectured there perhaps 10 times over the years.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by dwise1, posted 07-08-2017 12:17 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
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Posts: 2866
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 928 of 934 (814360)
07-08-2017 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 927 by Coyote
07-08-2017 12:35 AM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
One of the main problems I'm faced with right now is ready access to research materials, given my work schedule. That will give me ready access to materials in the libraries.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by Coyote, posted 07-08-2017 12:35 AM Coyote has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18805
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 929 of 934 (814369)
07-08-2017 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 926 by dwise1
07-08-2017 12:17 AM


Re: Polyploidy -- evolution by doubling the genome
So I see auditing a population genetics course in my future ...

I've been thinking of doing this too, especially as Brown University is a bicycle ride away and I could catch a lecture by Kenneth R. Miller.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by dwise1, posted 07-08-2017 12:17 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 930 of 934 (815169)
07-17-2017 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 924 by caffeine
07-07-2017 1:53 PM


Re: Hardy-Weinberg
caffeine writes:

The alleles should only be expected to be in Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium in the absence of selection.


Not quite. The population will still be subject to the same selection forces even after it has adapted to the environment, however these will tend to stabilise the population rather than change it.

Since both phenotypes are under selection..

Both population groups will move towards equilibrium for their environment, which is why for H-W Equilibrium they should be considered as separate groups. However since the groups interact where the habitats meet there will also be gene flow between the two which will interfere with equilibrium being reached.

Edited by CRR, : Changed subtitle


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