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Author Topic:   Does the history of life require "macroevolution"?
Faith
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Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 127 (815151)
07-16-2017 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jar
07-16-2017 8:08 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
The idea of the wall is national security, protection against illegals.

The doctrines of the RCC murdered 67 million people in their Inquisition. Some of their doctrines also prevent people from being saved.

The doctrines of Islam are all about murdering people.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:23 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 96 by CRR, posted 07-16-2017 9:06 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
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Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 92 of 127 (815154)
07-16-2017 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
07-16-2017 8:13 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
LOL

So you claim.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 1589
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 93 of 127 (815155)
07-16-2017 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-16-2017 8:00 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
Faith writes:

JonF writes:

That would be she, not he. In her seventies and consumed by hate and rage. Brown people, immigrants, Roman Catholics, homosexuals, liberals, mainstream anything, and probably others. All of them, in her words, "deserve to be hated".


That is way way out of line. The Left has no ability to tell the difference between ideas and people.

So, not as politically correct as you would like huh? Too bad, Snowflake.

Faith writes:

I think you need to be reported for this.

Sounds like political correctness run amuck to me.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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JonF
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Posts: 3992
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 94 of 127 (815156)
07-16-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
07-16-2017 8:00 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
Report me if you will.

You've explicitly said that you hate all those groups because they deserve to be hated.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:46 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 127 (815157)
07-16-2017 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by JonF
07-16-2017 8:39 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
I hate ideologies, and if you gave a link that would become clear. But Lefties really have no ability to think. That's why it's always all about people and not about the ideologies that tyrannically and murderously seek to rule the world, including their own Marxism.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
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CRR
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Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 96 of 127 (815158)
07-16-2017 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
07-16-2017 8:13 PM


Re: Completely off topic
Faith writes:

The doctrines of the RCC murdered 67 million people in their Inquisition

I believe the actual figures are about 3000 people over 300 years, less than 10 per year. By comparison atheist regimes such as Nazi Germany, Stalin, Mao, etc. murdered millions in far less time.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 8:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 11:59 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 127 (815162)
07-16-2017 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by CRR
07-16-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Completely off topic
The thousands often quoted refer to the Spanish Inquisition, but that was only a small part of the persecutions of non-Catholics by the RCC. The main reference for the high numbers killed by the RCC over 600 years is this study by David Plaisted which includes causes other than the Inquisition.

Cripplegate, a popular Protestant blog says:

However, if the term is used in a broad sense—to represent all Roman Catholic activity against non-Catholics—then the numbers rise dramatically. If the historian includes forms of torture and killing that did not involve a formal trial, along with religious wars and other forms of Catholic violence enacted against Protestants and other non-Catholics (in areas outside of Spain and Portugal), then one can easily speak in terms of millions of people who were killed.

And they mention Plaisted's study:

David Plaisted acknowledges that reality in his study: namely, that the really big estimates of Protestants killed by the papacy throughout European history necessarily include those who died in religious conflicts like the Thirty Years War.

50 million Christians and 17 million Jews and others over 600 years is quoted in various places, such as The History of Romanism by John Dowling, which is online.

The Inquisition is still going on in some Catholic countries, where the local Catholics persecute and murder the local Protestants. A few years ago there was a report of this among a rural Indian population of Mexico. I'll have to look it up.

And it was startling to me to hear about Garibaldi's discovery of people being tortured in dungeons in Rome when he conquered it, long after the supposed end of the official Inquisition.

So, you think the Roman Inquisition ended many centuries ago? Think again…

When Garibaldi’s armies marched into Rome in 1848, it was found that the Roman Catholic Church was walling-up, burning alive and also lowering victims – heretics and liberals, into giant ovens. 
The Vatican Church dungeons, discovered there, were opened up for the public to see (interestingly similar to what was done after WW2 when the Nazi camps were also opened for public viewing?)

Although I have seen, in a film, pictures of just what was displayed to the public, I can’t find anything on a www image search.

Has there been an attempt to delete these events, and the photographic record, from history?

These events and the pictures are detailed in a film by Adulum Productions called ‘Tares Among the Wheat’ (follow link)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wep1KFb3wns

The film also details the discovery that the Inquisition was still in full operation at the Convent of Santo Domingo in Mexico, exposed by H Grattan Guinness in his book City of Seven Hills, (1891).

The evidence was presented in an English Baptist Church publication called The Sword and the Trowel’, spring edition 1873 (see link below)
The article was written by the ‘Prince of Preachers’ Mr Charles Spurgeon, minister of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, in South London.

The Sword and the Trowel is still in publication – although todays reverent gentlemen at the Metropolitan Tabernacle are peculiarly reluctant to discuss this and other related matters. 

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by CRR, posted 07-16-2017 9:06 PM CRR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Pressie, posted 07-17-2017 6:09 AM Faith has responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1826
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 98 of 127 (815168)
07-17-2017 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
07-16-2017 11:59 PM


Re: Completely off topic
Faith writes:

The main reference for the high numbers killed by the RCC over 600 years is this study by David Plaisted which includes causes other than the Inquisition.

David Plaisted? That computer scientist who thinks that he knows more about geology than those hundreds of thousands of geologists from all over the world put together? Now he's writing about recent human history, too? Sorry, not buying his stories.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 07-16-2017 11:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-17-2017 8:56 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 99 of 127 (815178)
07-17-2017 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by CRR
07-16-2017 6:45 PM


Re: Simple Example -- any new mutation is outside the kind?
RAZD writes:

... then does any mutation that adds to the genetic diversity mean it is evolution outside the kind?

So clearly RAZD's question can be answered in the negative.

Except you didn't really answer the question. Let's clarify.

Using the analogy of a light switch. A functioning on/off switch is the archetype. Broken always on and broken always off add diversity but not function. An on/off switch that transformed into a dimmer switch would be much more interesting but would still be a lightswitch.

So the issue is adding function, not just adding diversity?

Not all mutations are "switches" and some are change of function -- does that meet the criteria of "outside the kind?"

Also copying a gene switch, so that one version can be always maintain the original on/off function and the other be utilized to switch a new function on/off would add diversity and function -- does that meet the criteria of "outside the kind?"

Dog breeding provides a good example ...

... of artificial selection that ignores the functional role of natural selection in non-domestic species to improve the fitness of the species by removing the unfit.

"Small population size during domestication and strong artificial selection for breed-defining traits has unintentionally increased the numbers of deleterious genetic variants," the researchers write.'

You can also do the link with dB coding: [url=http://... ]the researchers write.[/url]

The deleterious effects of in-breeding are well known. Using an example with a priori known in-breeding genetic deleterious effects as an example for all evolution is disingenuous at best and intentionally misleading at worst. It's like a straw man argument that only addresses a portion of the story.

... Allow dogs to freely breed and there would be regression toward the mean to produce a range of mongrels. ...

While still maintained as a source of pets, the dogs would still be selected based on personal choice for desired traits, and as such would still not be totally free of artificial selection ... (ever been to a dog-pound? They often kill the "undesirable" ones, regardless of ability to survive and breed).

Are these hybrid mongrels healthier than the pure-breeds? Do they benefit from mixing traits of other dogs to become desirable pets?

Feral dogs would be free to interbreed with coyotes and wolves and their ability to survive and reproduce would depend on their fitness to their environment.

Are these feral hybrids healthier than the pure-breeds? Do they benefit from mixing traits of other dogs and canids to become fit to survive and breed in their environment?

Is a coywolf a new breed/variety/species? Do they benefit from mixing traits of other dogs and canids to become fit to survive and breed in their environment?

quote:
Coywolf (sometimes called woyote) is an informal term for a canid hybrid descended from coyotes and gray wolves. Hybridization between the two species is facilitated by the fact that they diverged relatively recently (around 6,000–117,000 years ago). Genomic studies indicate that nearly all North American gray wolf populations possess some degree of admixture with coyotes following a geographic cline, with the lowest levels occurring in Alaska, but the highest in Ontario and Quebec as well as Atlantic Canada.[1]

Are they members of the wolf kind, coyote kind or canid kind or a new kind? They seem to thrive in urbanized environments.

... but the product is still a dog. ...

Which is precisely what evolution predicts. Amazing.

Take a small founding population and restrict the gene flow into the population and you will have different frequencies of alleles in that population than in the general population. Allow it to reproduce unrestrained and new mutations will occur, many that normal artificial breeding control will eliminate from the breeding population because they will be outside the breed ...

But they will always be descendants of dogs wolves and hence always part of the dog wolf clade.

So clearly RAZD's question can be answered in the negative.

SO, we are working on defining "kind" by what it isn't? ... helpful.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : wolf clade includes all dogs


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This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 127 (815180)
07-17-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Pressie
07-17-2017 6:09 AM


Re: Completely off topic
I don't know anything about Plaisted's claims in geology, but this study is well documented.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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JonF
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Posts: 3992
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 101 of 127 (815181)
07-17-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-17-2017 8:56 AM


Re: Completely off topic
Demonstrate that documentation.

(I don't buy hating ideologies and not hating the people. That's a feeble excuse to avoid the obvious. One way or another, your life is based on hate and fear.)

(Homosexuality is not an ideology.. What's your opinion on homosexuals and equal rights such as marriage? Don't bother, we know).

(Immigrants are not an ideology)

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-17-2017 8:56 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 07-17-2017 9:43 AM JonF has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 127 (815182)
07-17-2017 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by JonF
07-17-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Completely off topic
You "don't buy hating ideologies." You really need to learn the power of ideas. Islam says the world is to be conquered for Allah even if that means killing the "infidels" who don't follow Allah. That's an idea, an ideology, that has consquences in the real world. As all ideas do for good or bad.

The Bible calls homosexuality a sin and defines marriage as between a man and a woman. No hatred of anybody is involved in defending these biblical claims. Islam is a murdering ideology. No racism is involved in making this statement. Illegal immigration is a security issue, there's no racism involved except in the twisted minds of leftists.

You are a typical leftist that can't distinguish between ideas and people. I'm no racist or homophobe or xenophobe or any of the rest of the leftist lies, I address the ideologies that you turn into such personal failures in typical leftist fashion. You might as well be reading from the Alinsky rules or the Frankfurt School. It helps to work up emotion of course and to have an enemy to point to, which is the whole aim of the Left. Conservatives address issues, Leftists slander people.

Since this is off topic I'm not going to continue it here.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 07-17-2017 9:09 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 3992
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 103 of 127 (815183)
07-17-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
07-17-2017 9:43 AM


Re: Completely off topic
Homosexuals are people, not an ideology. You hate them.

Immigrants, legal or illegal, are people. You hate them.

Liberals are people. You hate them.

I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge reality here, since you don't acknowlege it anywhere else.

You are a typical leftist that can't distinguish between ideas and people.

Well, I kind of think I'm a person. Do you agree? If so, why are your insults directed at a person?

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 07-17-2017 9:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3992
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 104 of 127 (815184)
07-17-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-17-2017 8:56 AM


Re: Completely off topic
I don't know anything about Plaisted's claims in geology, but this study is well documented.

Still waiting for your demonstration of that claim.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-17-2017 8:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7263
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 105 of 127 (815216)
07-17-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
07-14-2017 6:37 PM


Re: Genes are more complex than that
Faith writes:

Mutations make no difference.

Quite obviously, the 40 million mutations that separate chimps and humans make a big difference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 07-14-2017 6:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by CRR, posted 07-18-2017 6:05 AM Taq has responded

  
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