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Author Topic:   Latest on the Republicans' war against health care
Taq
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Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 9 of 51 (814547)
07-10-2017 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
07-10-2017 1:23 PM


Tangle writes:
Despite being much further down the world rankings for healthcare than the UK, it's provision costs a third more.
Americans pay more than twice what the UK does for health care:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2017 1:23 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2017 5:58 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 11 of 51 (814550)
07-10-2017 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
07-10-2017 5:58 PM


Tangle writes:
The Yanks had such an opportunity to show the world how a modern Western democracy could work for the good of its citizens. Totally blew it. #Sad.
Half the country votes for a political party who purposefully makes the government not work for them. They actually think that a free market is the best model for a product that people can literally not live without. They simply don't understand when markets work and when they don't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2017 5:58 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-10-2017 6:14 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 13 of 51 (814554)
07-10-2017 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-10-2017 6:14 PM


jar writes:
You need to list all the products; it is far more than just Health Care. They think the free market is the answer to education, prisons, utilities, infrastructure, communications, transportation ...
Precisely. California played around with a free market for electricity and people had their rates skyrocket, with Enron leading the way. They quickly changed back to a government controlled market. As far as I know, utility prices are government controlled across the US, and for good reason. Imagine electricity companies being able to charge whatever they wanted during extremes of heat and cold. The same applies to health care, and even more so. There is simply no incentive for health care providers to lower their costs because people will pay whatever they charge.

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 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-10-2017 6:14 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:28 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 17 of 51 (814635)
07-11-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
07-10-2017 6:28 PM


Faith writes:
In my opinion all utilities and infrastructure should be run by the government and the Republicans are on the wrong side about that. And that is NOT socialism, it's the necessary job of government.
"Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production . . ."
Socialism - Wikipedia
It is socialism, by its very definition.
Faith writes:
However, education and other social institutions should not be run by government because they are about freedom of thought and if you leave them up to government we'll be run by the idiot leftists. Oh wait....
Sadly, insults is all you have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-10-2017 6:28 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 07-11-2017 12:21 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 20 of 51 (815010)
07-14-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Chiroptera
07-14-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Chiroptera writes:
It's still uncertain whether or not it's going to pass:
The problem Republicans are facing is that their effort to repeal the ACA was never about helping Americans get affordable health care. It has always been about politics, an effort to block Obama at every turn and remove any trace of his legacy.
When I was young, that was pretty much how Medicaid was criticized by the right: as a tax give-a-way to undeserving lazy poor people. It's interesting how it now seems to have a lot more support these days.
I think they are coming to realize that messing with Medicaid impacts a lot of their supporters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Chiroptera, posted 07-14-2017 12:36 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-14-2017 1:29 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 22 of 51 (815028)
07-14-2017 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
07-14-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Faith writes:
Oh nonsense. I don't understand a lot about the economic side of things but what i'm hearing on conservative radio is that Obamacare financed health care for the poor at such a high premium for the middle class they couldn't afford it.
You are correct that you don't understand a lot about the economic side of things. Obamacare did not set prices for health insurance. That would be the health insurance companies. What Obamacare did was provide subsidies so that people never paid above a certain percentage of their income on premiums. Without Obamacare, they would have been paying more for the same insurance.
The solutions being proposed are worse, however, by everybody's standards, nobody likes any of it. No idea where all this is going to end up. I haven't needed a lot of medical care fortunately but I've got Medicare plus Medicaid so I haven't had to think about what it costs. People are still paying for Obamacare though.
They are far worse. Republicans want to allow insurance companies to sell bad insurance to healthy people so that their premiums are lower. These plans will hardly cover anything, so it is a bit laughable to call it insurance to begin with. What this does is take healthy people out of the risk pools and leaves a much higher percentage of sick people. This will cause premiums to skyrocket. On top of that, they want to take away some of those subsidies so not only will premiums skyrocket for sick people but they will be getting less assistance as well.
That doesn't even get to their plan to gut Medicaid which is the largest health care provider in the country.

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 Message 21 by Faith, posted 07-14-2017 1:29 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 07-14-2017 5:23 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 25 of 51 (815040)
07-14-2017 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
07-14-2017 5:23 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
jar writes:
It is even worse, particularly for the willfully ignorant folk that would support the utter stupid plan proposed by the current crop of Conservatives.
I have to agree with Bernie on this one. Medicare for everyone is the best current solution. For people under 55 it could cover less and have people make up the difference with privately purchased supplemental insurance. For those 55 and older it could cover almost everything.
Health care costs are not going to go down until patients band together. As of now, there is simply no incentive for health care providers to lower costs. One of the largest not for profit (lol) hospitals where I live is on a huge spending binge on new facilities because their charter does not allow them to carry over profits from year to year. Even the non-profits can't figure out that maybe they should lower what they charge instead of building brand new shiny buildings every 6 months.
One of the main reasons that every other 1st world nation pays half of what the US does is that the government regulates the price. That is really the only way it is going to work in the US as well. Health care is a complete free market failure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 07-14-2017 5:23 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 07-14-2017 6:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 29 of 51 (815229)
07-17-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
07-14-2017 6:46 PM


Re: Newest Senate proposal
Rrhain writes:
So depending upon your healthcare needs, you may need to buy Part B and/or Part D coinsurance. And that's for current Medicare patients. Are you asking to expand that even more?
First off, current eligibility for Medicare is 65 (with a few exceptions), so I would like to see that go down to 55. This would cover a lot more people with chronic conditions.
I would also like to see a "watered down" version of Medicare that is available to everyone under 55. All citizens and legal residents with a work visa would be eligible. This would be more along the lines of a catastrophic health insurance that wouldn't have caps, would have a high deductible but cover almost all expenses above that deductible, and would also cover preventative care such as colonoscopies (which I think is one of the best programs in the ACA). This would leave room for supplementary insurance that would cover the high deductible and possibly other benefits (dental, eye) not covered in the watered down Medicare for all version.
Perhaps this is a terrible idea, but it seems workable, at least to me. What we can't have is a hard working father who gets sick and has to choose between bankrupting his family or getting life saving medical treatments. That is just immoral.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 07-14-2017 6:46 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 34 of 51 (815289)
07-18-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
07-18-2017 6:35 AM


Re: Where the Democrats fail
jar writes:
Unfortunately, the Democrats are simply giving away a glorious opportunity by not at least speaking out on what a Health Care Bill should do. Even though they can't pass anything they can still use their position to address the issue and sell an idea to the public if not the Legislature.
Agreed. They should at least be pitching a bill that would fix the ACA as it stands now. Once that is done, they could start pitching something like a public option for health insurance, which was supposed to be part of the original ACA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-18-2017 6:35 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2017 11:51 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 37 of 51 (815302)
07-18-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NoNukes
07-18-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Where the Democrats fail
NoNukes writes:
Perfect time to pitch a new plan. Unless you are counting on the Republicans failing to even get a straight repeal vote done.
They have now shown that they can't agree on a plan for a replacement which completely undercuts the idea that they can repeal now and replace later. It is like a little kid who overturns his bicycle even when the training wheels are on, and then expecting him to ride perfectly when the training wheels are removed.
You also have to look at what measures Republicans can even agree on within their own caucus. Do they have 50 votes for massive cutbacks in Medicaid, reduction in subsidies for insurance premiums, removal of protections for pre-existing conditions, subsidies for insurance companies, or requirements for coverage? I don't think they do.
I think they know that the "conservative" approach will boot people off of insurance, especially those that need it the most.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2017 11:51 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 40 of 51 (815375)
07-19-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Diomedes
07-19-2017 2:55 PM


Re: Next item: Tax cuts for the rich!
Diomedes writes:
Can anyone imagine how Republicans would have responded if Obama said he wasn't going to 'own' the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
The same thought struck me as well. Trump might as well claim that he isn't going to protect Americans from ISIS because Obama caused all of that mess, and that he won't own it if Americans are killed by ISIS. It's the same logic. Trump has also tried the same thing with the economy, claiming that he inherited a "mess" (even though he didn't).
If there were a Trump Dictionary you wouldn't find the word "accountability" anywhere in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Diomedes, posted 07-19-2017 2:55 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-19-2017 4:29 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(5)
Message 42 of 51 (815513)
07-20-2017 5:10 PM


Trump doesn't even know what health insurance is
The sad thing is that Trump apparently doesn't know what health insurance is, or how it works:
"So pre-existing conditions are a tough deal. Because you are basically saying from the moment the insurance, you’re 21 years old, you start working and you’re paying $12 a year for insurance, and by the time you’re 70, you get a nice plan. Here’s something where you walk up and say, I want my insurance. It’s a very tough deal, but it is something that we’re doing a good job of."
Does Donald Trump Know What Health Insurance Is?: An Investigation | Vanity Fair
Trump thinks health insurance costs 12 bucks a year, and that you cash it in like life insurance. No joke.

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


(7)
Message 48 of 51 (815987)
07-27-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NoNukes
07-27-2017 12:00 PM


NoNukes writes:
First and foremost, an objective view is that the Republic direction on health care is out of touch with what most voters want.
It is out of touch with their own rhetoric. They claim that they have to repeal Obamacare because it is failing, as defined by the lack of providers in many areas. Their solution? Get rid of regulations, mandates, and subsidies that prop up those markets which only ensures that they will fail. Their solution is to make it worse.
As punishment for saying no to such plans, the administrations threatens consequences for the state of Alaska.
Trump has yet to figure out that making deals to enrich himself is not the same as making deals that improve the lives of Americans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2017 12:00 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Diomedes, posted 07-28-2017 9:44 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9944
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 51 of 51 (816046)
07-28-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Diomedes
07-28-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Repeal fails in Senate
Diomedes writes:
I wonder if McCain has decided that at this stage in his life, facing the prospect of battling cancer, that he would just prefer to give Trump the proverbial middle finger and not tow the party line.
If memory serves, this was going to be McCain's last term anyway. The Furor may regret saying that McCain was not a war hero.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Diomedes, posted 07-28-2017 9:44 AM Diomedes has not replied

  
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