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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 283 (760624)
06-24-2015 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by AZPaul3
06-23-2015 7:18 PM


Re: Lost In Space
And if a believer holds to this belief then that means he believes this god thing of his purposely made non-believers so he could torture them in hell for all eternity. And made a whole hell of a lot of them, like the majority of all humans, so he could throw them in the lake of fire and revel in their torturous screams for all eternity.
What alternatives can be envisioned?
1) Leave everyone alone.
2) Save everybody...showing absolutely no partiality--even though God would have a right to such a decision regardless how we humans judged Him.(Not that we speak as one voice to begin with.... )
perhaps instead of a hell, unbelievers...after given a choice and rejecting it....could simply cease to exist. Do you have any better ideas, assuming God is omnipotent?

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2015 1:49 AM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 52 of 283 (761099)
06-28-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ringo
06-25-2015 12:10 PM


Re: Lost In Space
May the circle be unbroken...

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ringo, posted 06-25-2015 12:10 PM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 283 (761688)
07-04-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by New Cat's Eye
06-30-2015 10:09 AM


Re: Lost In Space
While I like the idea of eliminating harsh judgement, I would miss the idea of Gods blessing, favor, and/or reward.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2015 10:09 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 07-04-2015 12:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 283 (761708)
07-04-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
07-04-2015 12:00 PM


Creator Of Time & Space
ringp writes:
And you like the idea of your friend forcing himself on everybody?
If my "friend" were in fact the Creator of all seen and unseen, it would be you that would have to force yourself to ignore Him.
Seems to me the problem isn't me. Granted, you want to be left alone. Granted its easier to deal with reality as we perceive it rather than being forced to read the pamphlet left at our door. If people try and force a way of belief, that is wrong. Calvinists believed in Monegismwhich comes from a compound Greek word that means to work alone, . They believed it was all on "my friend".
While monergism is closely associated with John Calvin, synergism is associated with Jacob Arminius, and his views have greatly shaped the modern evangelical landscape. The latter see it as a two way street. If you shut yourself up in the towers of your mind, how can my friend ever talk to you...except I suppose through me.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by ringo, posted 07-04-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 283 (761831)
07-06-2015 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by AZPaul3
06-24-2015 1:49 AM


Re: Lost In Space
AZPaul3 writes:
I am quite partial to the idea that when your kind of god, or any kind of god for that matter, confronts me and is rejected it would simply cease to exist.
Wouldn't that be the essence of free will?
We are free to believe in magic, leprechauns and imaginary friends---or to choose to believe that our concept of reality is all that matters to us.
We are of course responsible for our choices.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2015 1:49 AM AZPaul3 has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 283 (815512)
07-20-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
12-13-2014 2:43 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
jar,in another thread writes:
Talk about truly evil inventions and Calvinism has to be near or atop the list.
Perhaps we better revisit this.
Phat,in 2014 writes:
jar used to have an analogy known as The Warlord:
quote:
There once was a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death.
The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him.
The analogy goes on to teach that the warlord had enough food for everyone and thus should have fed everyone...including those who did not like him nor wish to follow him.
jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it.
I would only say that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.
Why is the Warlords philosophy such a good thing? Shouldnt people have a right to refuse the pardon?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 2:43 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 07-20-2017 5:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 283 (815527)
07-21-2017 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by jar
07-20-2017 5:19 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
How did I misrepresent you? I quoted you. My question is whether the warlord analogy makes sense and whether it can be compared to the governor's pardon analogy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 07-20-2017 5:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 6:50 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 283 (815594)
07-21-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
07-21-2017 6:50 AM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
I thought I explained the positions earlier in this topic.
quote:
According to Arminianism:
Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man(who must respond)man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REJECTED by the Synod of Dort. This was the system of thought contained in the Remonstrance (though the five points were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.
So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation?
quote:
According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REAFFIRMED by the Synod of DortThis system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into five points (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as the five points of Calvinism.
The above was taken from Calvinism-vs-Arminianism comparison chart
In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 6:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 2:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 283 (815722)
07-23-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
07-21-2017 2:32 PM


Spending money Wherever Needed
jar writes:
Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies?
As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"?
I totally agree. I have always questioned the idea of "original sin" yet the evidence shows that humanity has not learned to collectively be as wise as we should be. Why do you suppose this is? Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character?
And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned? Or is that an excuse conveniently provided by us to pardon ourselves....
Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police? How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by jar, posted 07-21-2017 2:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 07-23-2017 4:10 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2017 4:27 PM Phat has replied
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 07-25-2017 12:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 283 (816335)
08-03-2017 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Tangle
07-23-2017 4:27 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Tangle writes:
It's simple really - you're god apparently built a world where every species has to fight other species and its own, simply to survive. We're relics of that business model and only now learning to deal with it.
Well, whether it was created or evolved in humans, its a hideous system. Competition allows no possibility of being blessed or favored---two traits which I count on at my advanced age in order to keep up with the young lions ready to knock me off my pedestal. Competition is cruel to the aged.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Tangle, posted 07-23-2017 4:27 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 08-03-2017 3:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 283 (816877)
08-12-2017 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
08-12-2017 3:11 AM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
tangle writes:
Of course if you apply Occam's razor and throw away the unnecessary god hypothesis, the problem is solved - life is short, disposable and brutish because it has no goal except to create more life in whatever means it can - no matter have inefficient and nasty.
And then you get to teach your kids how to be less brutal, more efficient, and less nasty. The lesson is taught. The God of my imagination played you like a pawn in a chess game!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 3:11 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Tangle, posted 08-12-2017 6:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 121 of 283 (816991)
08-14-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
08-14-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jesus was obviously just another man, his death did not end this wordly suffering that your mythology predicted.
Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it. No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 134 of 283 (817069)
08-15-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Stile
08-15-2017 11:15 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Stile writes:
You can eliminate evil and make the world better.
-but this gets into the issue of where evil/not-evil actually exists along the gradient
Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better.
Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is.
A few thoughts.
  • What if death is...as Forrest Gump suggests...just another part of life? What if getting eaten by another creature is a natural cause and that evil has nothing to do with it? The only complaint I would raise is in regards to human cannibalism since we are not carnivores by design.
  • What if God sees a bigger picture than we as humans can fathom? What if the results of Creation must go through certain primitive steps with an ultimate goal of making us more empathetic, resolved against evil, or even angry at God (or some force) for our ultimate benefit in our growth and awareness? In other words what I'm trying to say is "what if God is right in that everything is meant to play out largely as it has done"?
    After all it seems to me to be a bit of hubris that humans with limited perception and information can arrogantly judge a Creator. But then again...as jar may suggest...we are charged to do just that. In this way, God helps us grow through judging and opposing Him.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 11:15 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 153 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 135 of 283 (817071)
    08-15-2017 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 131 by Tangle
    08-15-2017 9:53 AM


    Re: Why do you care?
    Tangle writes:
    You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive environment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable.
    Think about it this way. Muscles grow by being challenged over and above their limits. Tissue breaks down and is rebuilt at a stronger level. So what if God foreknew that the whole messy affair had to be brutal and ugly in order for the human character to have a chance at developing empathy, survival, and awareness of how to fight and grow?
    IF God had simply designed the environment as comfortable to us, we would simply be a bunch of couch potatoes with no character.
    You see death as tragic, which is a human characteristic. God may see death as simply leftover clay smashed back into the mound next to the wheel.
    And again as I said earlier...we may judge Him as being incompetent, petty, evil, or uncaring. We may even dismiss Him altogether. In the meantime, however, our inner character is evolving so as to guide our own destiny without Him. And if He exists this may have been His plan from the beginning anyway.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 131 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 9:53 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 147 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 1:06 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 137 of 283 (817074)
    08-15-2017 12:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 133 by Stile
    08-15-2017 11:15 AM


    Re: Why do you care?
    Stile writes:
    Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better.
    Yes. We are charged to do what we can to make the world better. We may well be responsible, in fact.
    Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is.
    I agree. Thats the best we can do. No shame there.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 133 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 11:15 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

      
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