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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar,in another thread writes: Talk about truly evil inventions and Calvinism has to be near or atop the list. Perhaps we better revisit this.
Phat,in 2014 writes: jar used to have an analogy known as The Warlord: quote:There once was a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death. The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him. The analogy goes on to teach that the warlord had enough food for everyone and thus should have fed everyone...including those who did not like him nor wish to follow him.jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it. I would only say that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. Why is the Warlords philosophy such a good thing? Shouldnt people have a right to refuse the pardon?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Stop misrepresenting me Phat.
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
How did I misrepresent you? I quoted you. My question is whether the warlord analogy makes sense and whether it can be compared to the governor's pardon analogy.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No Phat, you went on to describe an assumption to me which is not one that I made.
The problem is that I don't think you even realize how often you do that. You said "jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it." which is NOT what I said or implied or suggested. I said that the Warlord had food enough for everyone and so should have fed everyone. I did not say everyone had to eat. But even beyond that, what does that have to do with Calvinism or Arminianism? Do you know what either entails?
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I thought I explained the positions earlier in this topic.
quote:So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation? quote:In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation? If you don't eat then eventually you starve.
Phat writes: In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well? "Do you not destroy your enemies when you make them your friends?" That is certainly not an original quote by any means. Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies? As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"?
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I totally agree. I have always questioned the idea of "original sin" yet the evidence shows that humanity has not learned to collectively be as wise as we should be. Why do you suppose this is? Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character? Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies? As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"? And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned? Or is that an excuse conveniently provided by us to pardon ourselves.... Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police? How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin? The concept of "Original Sin" is another great cop out to allow those who claim it to avoid responsibility for their own actions. It is a deplorable and pathetic excuse used by deplorable and pathetic people.
Phat writes: Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character? That is yet another example of cop outs. Wars happen for many reasons and wars are opposed for many reasons. If you wish to claim war shows some intrinsic evil then you must also agree that the opposing side in a war shows the same intrinsic evil.
Phat writes: And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned? That is certainly part but Calvinism is far worse than just that; it is perhaps the most vile, mean, evil, disgusting creation of Christianity. Imagine telling a child that they are condemned at birth, worthless and can only be saved through the acts of someone else? Any parent that treated their child in that way would certainly and rightly be considered a horrid parent. Calvinism seems to have absolutely no social redeeming characteristics.
Phat writes: Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police? Of course our current form of government could use money to heal rather than harm; BUT only if the voting public demands such behavior.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I have always questioned the idea of "original sin" yet the evidence shows that humanity has not learned to collectively be as wise as we should be. Why do you suppose this is? It's because all life on earth is competitive. It's set up that way and we're no different. It's simple really - you're god apparently built a world where every species has to fight other species and its own, simply to survive. We're relics of that business model and only now learning to deal with it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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nd getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil According to Calvinists, there are people foreordained to the worst torment available for an eternity, and there is nothing they, you or anybody else can do about it. A lifetime spent seeking to avoid such punishment is doomed to failure? Given that the Bible itself teaches no such thing, with Calvinism being imposed on the Bible absent any clear Biblical support because folks have a fatalistic philosophy seems like pure evil to me. Yes, free will is a difficult thing to resolve in the face of omniscience. But why would a Christian choose to resolve the problem in the most hideous way possible? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: Well, whether it was created or evolved in humans, its a hideous system. Competition allows no possibility of being blessed or favored---two traits which I count on at my advanced age in order to keep up with the young lions ready to knock me off my pedestal. Competition is cruel to the aged. It's simple really - you're god apparently built a world where every species has to fight other species and its own, simply to survive. We're relics of that business model and only now learning to deal with it.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Well, whether it was created or evolved in humans, its a hideous system. Competition allows no possibility of being blessed or favored---two traits which I count on at my advanced age in order to keep up with the young lions ready to knock me off my pedestal. Competition is cruel to the aged. Competition is cruel, period. It's hard to imagine a more cruel way of setting up a system of life. Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil - life having to hunt and kill other life to to be alive themselves is fantastically cruel. People evolved in this system of kill or be killed, fight will your neighbour and other animals for food, shelter, mating rights and security. Then, even if you succeed, you eventually die anyway. It really should be no surprise that we still exhibit some of these ancient traits. It should also make you wonder why your god set up such an evil and monstrous system in the first place. Edited by Tangle, : NoNuke's pedantry ;-)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Competition is cruel, period. It's hard to imagine a less cruel way of setting up a system of life. I think you reverse the sense of one of your adverbs...
Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil - life having to hunt and kill other life to to be alive themselves is fantastically cruel. I disagree. Particularly when the alternative is a population of sickly, weak, and unevolved animals. In my opinion, the circle of life imposed over a circumstance of competition, survival, and evolution works extremely well and produces a superb outcome. I doubt that humans could evolve in the "good" system you envision. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes:
Fixed thanks.
I think you reverse the sense of one of your adverbs... quote: There's a lot going on here isnt there? Firstly, why is the alternative to carnivorism sickly, weak and unevolved? Herbivores are as evolved as any other critter. Second, what is this superb outcome? And why is it better than another outcome such as one where life on earth isn't 'short and brutish'. Third, if this is a design, why on earth pick this one for us - it's ham-fisted, cruel and stupid. A child could design a better world given an infinite paint pallette.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 434 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Maybe from the zebra's point of view. The lion would probably think a garden salad was evil.
Even the existence of carnivorousness is evil....
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