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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 533 of 1498 (815131)
07-16-2017 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by marc9000
07-16-2017 3:24 PM


Re: that wasn't so hard now, was it?
marc9000 writes:
Do you believe that humans, at any time in the future, are CAPABLE of understanding the endlessness of space, as one example?
Can you define what quantity of knowledge that is? In order to be able to ascertain what proportion humans will eventually be able to understand, don't you need to know that?
Quantity? What does that mean, ...
Oh for goodness sake, you can't even keep track of your own argument. You said:
Message 515: If we were to ask a science guy like Bill Nye what percentage of reality can humans not be capable of understanding versus what we can understand, he'd probably say we can understand...80 to 90% of all of reality. ...
Let's put that in a formula to see the silliness of this statement: what is the proportion of
knowledge humans are capable of learning
knowing all about reality, life, the universe, everything
SO I was asking you to define the denominator ... because you were being silly.
So your question was silly.
There's nothing silly about questioning the wisdom of fitting all of reality into what might be a very limited re-arrangement realm. ...
That wasn't your silly question. Changing goal posts?
I'd like to know how space can be endless. ...
The typical physics description is "finite but unbounded", and neither of those are "endless" - an analogy might help
A Mbius strip is a finite object, but has one side and one edge, topologically it is unbounded, you can travel parallel to the edge without limit, without reaching an end.
A Klein Bottle adds another dimension and no longer has an edge
It is theoretical (although I have a knitted hat in this shape) because of the intersection where it goes through itself. (technically the moebius strip is also theoretical because you can't make one without thickness).
Topologically it's surface is also finite but unbounded. Some people do have endless fun with them ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 548 of 1498 (815442)
07-20-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by marc9000
07-19-2017 8:05 PM


Re: that wasn't so hard now, was it?
The irony ... it burns ...
Riiiight.... that's why nobody has ever been convicted of murder.
I don't believe court systems absolutely prove things, they just come to the best conclusion they can based on the information they have. Worldviews aren't involved to the same extent.
You just described science ... it doesn't "absolutely prove things," it just comes to the best conclusion it can based on the information it has.
And it does reach conclusions that are demonstrably valid beyond reasonable doubt, such as that the earth is very, very, very old, based on even more evidence than is posted in this thread. Conclusions we can have high confidence in being valid because of the preponderance of evidence.
Especially when those conclusions are backed up by several different systems of investigation, using different methodologies, but reaching the same conclusions.
Tree rings and lake and marine varves agreeing to remarkable degree of precision and accuracy not just on age but on 14C content and then agreeing with ice cores not just on volcanic events but on climate variations.
Explaining results as errors in one system with some made up cockamamie creationist conception does not explain the consilience with the same results from other systems, and explaining results as errors in another system with some other made up cockamamie creationist conception does not explain the consilience with the same results from other systems, and this inability to explain the congruence and consilience in results is why cockamamie creationist conceptions have failed to explain reality in a way that incorporates ALL the objective empirical facts/evidence. ...
... while science consistently shows an old age for the earth that is beyond reasonable doubt.
Why does the wiggle pattern of variation of 14C with age match the wiggle pattern of variation of 10Be in ice layers for the same ages if they are not both accurate and precise records of the cosmogenic climate that creates both 14C and 10Be in the atmosphere at different ages?
Why does the pattern of variation of δ18O and δ13C in ice layers match the pattern of variation of δ18O and δ13C in a calcite flow in a cavern in Nevada for the same age, when one is measured by ice layers and the other is measured by two independent radiometric methods ("Thorium-230 dates were independently confirmed by non-USGS investigators using Protactinium-231.") ... if they are not due to the same actual age of the earth?
quote:
Using the half-lives of thorium-230 (75,380 years) and protactinium-231 (32,760 years), we can now draw the exponential curves for these isotopes (with % on the y-axis and time in k-yrs on the x axis, thorium in blue and protactinium in red):
This means we have a series of data with three different pieces of information: calcite layer age, Thorium-230 content and Protactinium-231 content. We also note that Thorium-230 has a half-life of 75,380 years, while Protactinium-231 has a half-life of 32,760 years - less than half the half-life of Thorium-230. This means that layer by layer the ratio of Thorium-230 to Protactinium-231 is different:
   Age   THr=THf/THo PAr=PAf/PAo  THr/PAr
------------------------------------------
75,380 0.5000 0.2029 2.46
150,760 0.2500 0.0412 6.07
226,140 0.1250 0.0084 14.96
301,520 0.0625 0.0017 36.86
376,900 0.0313 0.0003 90.82
452,280 0.0156 0.0001 223.77
527,660 0.0078 0.00001 551.35
So for these dates to be invalid there would have to be a mechanism that can layer by layer preferentially change the ratio of these two {elements\isotopes} within the solid calcite vein.
Based on the ages determined from the radioactive decay of thorium and protactinium the values for δ18O and δ13C values were tabulated and these climate patterns were compared to those of the ice cores. The result was that they were "highly correlated" with climatological data from the Vostok ice core data, which "matches almost perfectly" the climatological data from the Greenland ice core data. Thus the climate correlation shows that the ages determined by the radioactive decay match the ages determined from counting the layers of ice in these cores - highly correlated between two climate measures, two radioactive age measures, two ice cores.
(From Message 9 in this thread).
The simplest explanation is that these congruent, correlating consiliences are due to actual age measurements, made by hard working scientists using a variety of methods that have each and all been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt to be accurate and precise.
The other simple explanation is that it was all created as a joke to delude people and with the intent to lead them astray. Loki comes to mind ...
The earth is really old. Get used to it.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by marc9000, posted 07-19-2017 8:05 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by marc9000, posted 07-21-2017 8:02 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 552 of 1498 (815541)
07-21-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by marc9000
07-19-2017 8:02 PM


Re: that wasn't so hard now, was it?
... But there is disagreement on between them on how old the earth is, ...
Is that disagreement based on science or fantasy? Are you going to reply to Message 548 which shows that the earth is older than fantasy YECie belief/opinion/delusion ...
... what the supernatural is capable of if it isn't bound by one time and three space dimensions.
Or do you go with the alternative?
quote:
Message 548: The simplest explanation is that these congruent, correlating consiliences are due to actual age measurements, made by hard working scientists using a variety of methods that have each and all been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt to be accurate and precise.
The other simple explanation is that it was all created as a joke to delude people and with the intent to lead them astray. Loki comes to mind ...
The earth is really old. Get used to it.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 560 of 1498 (815641)
07-22-2017 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by marc9000
07-21-2017 7:52 PM


Re: Another falsehood
"At some point", within DuPont's many methods, including science. (pure science) Not the atheist-promoting kind.
quote:
DuPont’s vision has always been to apply world-class science to enable a better, safer, and healthier life for people everywhere. Today, we are helping our customers find solutions to some of the world’s most pressing needs, by enabling safer, more nutritious food; creating high-performance, cost effective and energy efficient materials; and increasingly delivering renewably sourced bio-based materials and fuels. All of our business call upon our world-class science and technology, a deep understanding of commercial value chains and market knowledge to deliver value-added solutions. This total system of innovation continually renews our portfolio, creates new product lines, and transforms markets to deliver results for our customers, employees and shareholders.
http://www.dupont.com/...science/science-and-technology.html
You'll notice there was nothing there about wasting a lot of time and effort in agonizing over the age of the earth.
I also don't see anything there about them proving science, rather what I see is them applying what has been learned from science to make products -- that's chemical engineering not science.
Try again.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 561 of 1498 (815642)
07-22-2017 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by marc9000
07-21-2017 8:02 PM


Re: that wasn't so hard now, was it?
Often after starting with a pre-determined conclusion, heavily influenced by a worldview.
Can you give us an example of such a "pre-determined conclusion?"
If it happens "Often" then you must have loads of examples, so trot one out.
Except when the creationist conception considers the possibility of another time dimension. ...
In other words, magic time, miracle time, ... god-did-it time. Can you show how such creationist extra time dimension concept explains the amounts of Protactinium and Thorium in the solid calcite vein? Here it is again:
quote:
This means we have a series of data with three different pieces of information: calcite layer age, Thorium-230 content and Protactinium-231 content. We also note that Thorium-230 has a half-life of 75,380 years, while Protactinium-231 has a half-life of 32,760 years - less than half the half-life of Thorium-230. This means that layer by layer the ratio of Thorium-230 to Protactinium-231 is different:
   Age   THr=THf/THo PAr=PAf/PAo  THr/PAr
------------------------------------------
75,380 0.5000 0.2029 2.46
150,760 0.2500 0.0412 6.07
226,140 0.1250 0.0084 14.96
301,520 0.0625 0.0017 36.86
376,900 0.0313 0.0003 90.82
452,280 0.0156 0.0001 223.77
527,660 0.0078 0.00001 551.35
So for these dates to be invalid there would have to be a mechanism that can layer by layer preferentially change the ratio of these two {elements\isotopes} within the solid calcite vein.
How would a different/extra time dimension solve this problem for YECies? Inquiring minds want to know.
The earth is really old. Get used to it.
I don't need to get used to it, I live in the present. ...
So it really makes no real difference to your life if the earth is really old. You could accept an old earth and have no effect on your behavior or beliefs.
... The only reason you would suggest that I get used to it is to make it easier for me to accept future liberal political commands that are associated with its "knowledge". That's what the scientific community's brand of science is all about, isn't it?
LOL. If it doesn't match your world view it must be a world wide conspiracy for mind control. Because liberal ...
Curiously facts are neither liberal or conservative, they are just evidence of reality.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by marc9000, posted 07-21-2017 8:02 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by marc9000, posted 07-23-2017 4:05 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 571 of 1498 (815755)
07-24-2017 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by marc9000
07-23-2017 3:53 PM


paleo-climate in the age record validates current climate changes are happening
I analyze what they do and propose with other subjects, like history, and what the Holy Bible actually says.
But not against actual empirical objective evidence, such as we have for an old earth. It doesn't take much to show that claims for a young earth are bogus and misinformed or plain lies.
Of course you could prove me wrong by trotting out some evidence along with those preconceived assumptions you go on about.
Today's scientific community uses "science" to advance the global warming hoax, the biggest money and power grabbing political farce in world history.
You must use the same approach to this information as you do to claims of a young earth -- listening to oil magnate puppets instead of looking at actual empirical objective evidence, because it doesn't take much to show that climate change is happening and that it is predominantly due to use of fossil fuels and the exhaust of CO2 into the atmosphere.
The sea is rising
The temperatures are setting records
The ice caps are melting
It correlates with CO2
I was tempted to say you are off topic, but part of the evidence for an old earth is the correlations in the data to climate -- why do the different measuring systems that have markers for climate -- like tree ring widths and ice core δ18O variations -- correlate with climate variations, eg they have the same patterns of variations for the ages they measure?
Ice Core Paleoclimatology Publications | Byrd Polar and Climate Research Center
quote:
ABSTRACT The first ice-core record of both the Holocene and Wisconsin/Wiirm Late Glacial Stage (LGS) from the subtropics has been extracted from three ice cores to bedrock from the Dunde ice cap on the north-central Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau. ... The ice cores have been dated using a combination of annual layers in the insoluble dust and δ18O in the upper sections of core, visible dust layers which are annual, and ice-flow modeling. The oxygen isotope record which serves as a temperature proxy indicates that the last 60 years have been the warmest in the entire record.
All these analyses lead us to conclude that the lower 10 m in the Dunde ice cap represent ice deposited during the last glacial stage. The high dust concentrations correlate closely with δ18O depletion (temperature proxy) as found in all polar cores extending below the LGS/Holocene transition. ...
Funny how the evidence keeps piling up, and how evidence for an old earth also provides evidence of past climates keeps showing the modern trend is real and climate change is happening.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 573 of 1498 (815759)
07-24-2017 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by marc9000
07-23-2017 4:05 PM


preassumptions ... vs reality
That the earth is old, ...
So you are saying that scientists already assumed the earth is old before they start counting tree rings? varve layers? ice core layers? That these facts uncovered are not really evidence of age?
Fascinating. Demonstrably False, but fascinating to see how cognitive dissonance tries to disparage dissonant information ...
... that Darwinism is true, ...
So you are saying that scientists already assumed that the mechanisms of evolution are valid before they start looking for mutations and start measuring the change in frequency of alleles in breeding populations from generation to generation? That the observation of natural selection in action based on variation in the populations are not really evidence of evolution?
Fascinating. Demonstrably False, but fascinating to see how cognitive dissonance tries to disparage dissonant information ...
... that there is no creator, that no one has been endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights if no creator exists.
Except for all those religious scientists ... like Dr. Roger C. Wiens
quote:
Radiometric Dating
A Christian Perspective
Arguments over the age of the Earth have sometimes been divisive for people who regard the Bible as God's word. Even though the Earth's age is never mentioned in the Bible, it is an issue because those who take a strictly literal view of the early chapters of Genesis can calculate an approximate date for the creation by adding up the life-spans of the people mentioned in the genealogies. Assuming a strictly literal interpretation of the week of creation, even if some of the generations were left out of the genealogies, the Earth would be less than ten thousand years old. Radiometric dating techniques indicate that the Earth is thousands of times older than that--approximately four and a half billion years old. Many Christians accept this and interpret the Genesis account in less scientifically literal ways. However, some Christians suggest that the geologic dating techniques are unreliable, that they are wrongly interpreted, or that they are confusing at best. Unfortunately, much of the literature available to Christians has been either inaccurate or difficult to understand, so that confusion over dating techniques continues.
The next few pages cover a broad overview of radiometric dating techniques, show a few examples, and discuss the degree to which the various dating systems agree with each other. The goal is to promote greater understanding on this issue, particularly for the Christian community. Many people have been led to be skeptical of dating without knowing much about it. For example, most people don't realize that carbon dating is only rarely used on rocks. God has called us to be "wise as serpents" (Matt. 10:16) even in this scientific age. In spite of this, differences still occur within the church. A disagreement over the age of the Earth is relatively minor in the whole scope of Christianity; it is more important to agree on the Rock of Ages than on the age of rocks. But because God has also called us to wisdom, this issue is worthy of study.
Then there is this:
Christian Geologists on Noah's Flood: Biblical and Scientific Shortcomings of Flood Geology, part 4
quote:
We will employ tree rings and carbon-14, but not in the way readers may be accustomed to seeing. We will not use carbon-14 to determine an age at all. We will simply measure how much carbon-14 is currently found in each tree ring. Carbon-14 decays with time, so if each tree ring represents one year of growth, we should see a steady decline in the carbon-14 content of each successive ring. Figure 5 shows tree-ring carbon-14 data from living trees extending back 4000 rings.[2] ...
If additional confidence in this data is desired, it may be helpful to note that the amount of carbon-14 found in a timber from a tunnel in Jerusalem thought to have been built by Hezekiah is approximately the same as the amount found in tree ring number 2700, which places its ring-counting age where expected from Biblical records if each ring equals one year. Even better, consider the Dead Sea Scrolls — the book of Isaiah in particular. ... The amount of carbon-14 in the Isaiah scrolls is equal to or less than the amount in tree ring number 2100, meaning carbon-14 confirms its before-Christ historicity.[3]
Figure 4 shows varve data from Steel Lake and Lake Suigetsu extended to the limit of carbon-14 detection. Serious consideration of this data should be sobering for the committed Young-Earther.
The graphs appears to start with year 2000 CE (rather than 1950). This adds 2050 BP (100 BCE) and 2650 BP (700 BCE) to the list of correlations of historical artifact to dendrochronological age by 14C content.
Note that this is NOT a 14C age calibration curve, it is a plot of the natural log of actual measured modern day 14C/14C(1950CE) levels vs annual calendar values from tree rings and lake varves, and this plot does not depend in any way on the half-life of 14C -- it just uses the ln(14C measured) for levels measured today.
Note further that there is a discussion of the original Lake Suigetsu varve research at Accuracy in Genesis: Lake Varves
quote:
One of the products of the continuing cycles of the seasons can be found on the bottoms of some lakes. Each spring, tiny plants bloom in Lake Suigetsu, a small body of water in Japan. When these one-cell algae die, they drift down, shrouding the lake floor with a thin, white layer. The rest of the year, dark clay sediments settle on the bottom. At the bottom of Lake Suigetsu, thin layers of microscopic algae have been piling up for many years. The alternating layers of dark and light count the years like tree rings. ...
The results from just one source could possibly be readily contested, but in this case the scientists have correlated the results from multiple sources including that of Lake Gosciaz (Poland), German oak and pine tree ring chronologies and also calibrations from coral data. Many in the scientific community are proposing the result of the above study as a "calibration" to radiometric C14 data, see Appendix A. Also the data seems to indicate no more that a 16.7 percent error due to deviation of C14 in the atmosphere for the past 40,000 years.
Conclusion: The apparent close correlation of the dating results from multiple sources appears to be strong evidence for an earth much older than 10,000 years!
Also C14 dating affirms Scripture/Scripture affirms C14 dating!
This recognizes that the consilience in the data from different sources gives high confidence in the results.
Did those people start with your pre-assumptions?
Or did they start with the pre-assumption that objective empirical evidence actually represents reality, that following where the evidence leads, not preconceptions, tells us the earth is old?
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : correction

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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 Message 565 by marc9000, posted 07-23-2017 4:05 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by Pollux, posted 07-24-2017 8:35 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 574 of 1498 (815761)
07-24-2017 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by marc9000
07-23-2017 4:05 PM


And this doesn't disprove\falsify an old earth ...
In other words, magic time, miracle time, ... god-did-it time.
Yes, not big-bang time.
So all the evidence is really a trick played by a trickster god ... Loki comes to mind. Or last-Thursdayism.
You prefer fantasy to reality it seems.
How would a different/extra time dimension solve this problem for YECies? Inquiring minds want to know.
The problem is only yours, in trying to fit all of reality into human understanding.
So if I totally ignore reality I can live in the delusions of your world. If you ignore the problems do they go away? Do they magically disappear?
Sorry. I prefer reality.
So it really makes no real difference to your life if the earth is really old. You could accept an old earth and have no effect on your behavior or beliefs.
Yes I could. But it's one of the first, best starting points of AED's to convince future generations that if Genesis is wrong, then maybe everything else in the Bible is wrong too.
Logical fail. Demonstrably false as well. When the world was accepted as orbiting the sun instead of vice-versa, that was not taken as proof that everything else in the Bible was wrong. The belief in a young earth is no more important to belief in the Bible than was belief in a geocentric universe.
You do realize that the purported YECie age of the earth is based on many assumptions -- and that no two such assessments have come to the same end result? Why is that?
LOL. If it doesn't match your world view it must be a world wide conspiracy for mind control. Because liberal ...
Similar to the way "Darwin's Black Box" didn't match your worldview? It was a world wide conspiracy for mind control against actual science, wasn't it?
Actually it failed to match reality. And a rather pathetic attempt by one person does not a world wide conspiracy make. Wiki has this to say:
quote:
Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution (1996; second edition 2006) is a book by Michael J. Behe, a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania and a senior fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture. In the book Behe presents his notion of irreducible complexity and argues that its presence in many biochemical systems therefore indicates that they must be the result of intelligent design rather than evolutionary processes. In 1993, Behe had written a chapter on blood clotting in Of Pandas and People, presenting essentially the same arguments but without the name "irreducible complexity",[1] which he later presented in very similar terms in a chapter in Darwin's Black Box. Behe later agreed that he had written both and agreed to the similarities when he defended intelligent design at the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial.[2][3]
Reception
Darwin's Black Box was not well received by the scientific community, which rejected Behe's premises and arguments. Kenneth Miller described Behe's argument as an updated version of the argument from design with reference to biochemistry (which was echoed by other reviewers),[10][11] and also cites areas in biochemistry and the fossil record which demonstrate currently irreducibly complex systems evolving. Miller also describes Behe's theory as unfalsifiable, arguing that it arbitrarily ignores evidence that shows the evolution of a biochemical system.[12] On his blog, PZ Myers described it as "...an example of pseudoscientific dreck that has been enormously influential."[13] In a review for Nature, Jerry Coyne described the book hailing from 'populist' creationism that failed to deal with the evidence for evolution honestly. Coyne also accuses Behe of quote mining and using ad hominem attacks against scientists while 'timidly accepting' evolution.[4]
A review on the pro-evolution website talk.origins, described the book as "...an exposition of the Frontiers of Ignorance" and that within it systems were labeled "irreducibly complex" if Behe was not able to envision a simpler system that still worked. The review also stated that the theory was unfalsifiable (echoing Miller[12]), with faulty logic that worked because Behe did not provide crucial facts that would illustrate its failings.[14] H. Allen Orr has called Behe's argument in the book "...just plain wrong", arguing that gradual adaptation could produce irreducibly complex systems. Orr points to examples of gradual adaptation already known (citing to the work of H. J. Muller in the early 20th century[15]). Behe is also criticized for claiming a conspiracy of silence among scientists regarding the 'failure of Darwinism'.[10]
Richard Dawkins criticized the book for the New York Times as being logically flawed by setting up a false dichotomy in which Darwinian evolution is rejected despite an enormous amount of positive evidence due to a single apparent failure to explain irreducible complexity. Dawkins further commented that it was an argument Darwin himself had anticipated, and he stated that the example of a bacterial flagellum used by Behe had in fact been refuted by Kenneth R. Miller in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District.[5] ...
Peer review controversy
In 2005, while testifying for the defense in the Dover trial, Behe claimed under oath that the book had received a more thorough peer review than a scholarly article in a refereed journal,[20] a claim which appears to conflict the facts of the book's peer review.[21] Four of the book's five reviewers (Michael Atchison, Robert Shapiro, K. John Morrow, and Russell Doolittle) have made statements that contradict or otherwise do not support Behe's claim of the book passing a rigorous peer review.
Michael Atchison
Atchison has stated that he did not review the book at all, but spent 10 minutes on the phone receiving a brief overview of the book which he then endorsed without ever seeing the text.[22]
Robert Shapiro
Shapiro has said that he reviewed the book, and while he agreed with some of its analysis of origin-of-life research, he thought its conclusions are false, though the best explanation of the argument from design that was available.[23] Had the book been submitted to a peer-reviewed journal and this comment had appeared, the review provided by Shapiro would have forced the conclusions regarding intelligent design to be changed or removed.[23]
K. John Morrow
Morrow criticized the book as appalling and unsupported, which contributed to the original publisher turning down the book for publication.[24]
Russell Doolittle
Doolittle, upon whom Behe based much of his discussion of blood clotting, described it as misrepresenting a simplified explanation he had given in a lecture, and presenting a fallacious creationist miscalculation of improbability by omitting known options,[25] which also contributed to the original publisher turning down the book for publication.[26]
In the same trial, Behe eventually testified under oath that "There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred".[27] The result of the trial was the ruling that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.
Not a book - or an author - I would use to honestly represent reality.
And none of it disproves or falsifies an old earth. None of it challenges the methods used to measure the age of the earth. None of it explains the correlations of different methods and the consilience of results.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 576 of 1498 (815774)
07-24-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by Pollux
07-24-2017 8:35 AM


Re: preassumptions ... vs reality
Fixed, thanks.

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RAZD
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Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 578 of 1498 (815940)
07-26-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by NosyNed
07-26-2017 2:47 PM


Re: Book
Ya know, you've got the beginnings of a useful book in these posts.
Yes, that is a project I am working on. It will require contacting all the people for permission to use their information. I've talked to a number already.
The next step I am looking at is to put the new version all together in one topic that could be place on the correspondent forum, The way my building blocks #1 post was done.
That would be a trial "publishing" if you will, open for peer review ...
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 580 of 1498 (823016)
11-05-2017 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by starman
11-05-2017 2:30 AM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
If trees grew fast in the distant past, rings would not be any correlation or way to determine ages because trees growing in weeks and their rings could not be seasonal/yearly rings.
Indeed, and we also know that the cells making up the tree rings in faster growing portions of the year are visibly different from those in the slower growing portions of the year, they are larger.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 588 of 1498 (823039)
11-05-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by starman
11-05-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
You know that it is that way NOW! In the far past, say in the bristle-cone pines, if there were some visibly different rings, we would not know what caused them today!
We know that the pattern of the widths is very consistent showing consistent growth with modern days.
There are no significantly visibly different rings that what is observed from normal climate variations. Not in either of the two Bristlecone Pine chronologies nor in the two European Oak chronologies.
Making up fantasy is not an argument, it is fantasy. Fantasies don't explain correlations -- such as the correlations of rings with carbon-14 content in the rings across all four chronologies. Which continues with the lake and maring varves.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 589 of 1498 (823041)
11-05-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by starman
11-05-2017 1:36 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
Naturally ice layers would have also been different. Your correlations are flawed and all based on the present nature!
What is your evidence? Do you know the detail of evidence of annual layers in the ice cores?
Assertion and opinion have shown remarkably little success in changing reality.
Enjoy

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 592 of 1498 (823044)
11-05-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by starman
11-05-2017 1:42 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
Whatever there was or was not need not concern you since you don't know. You try to limit the future and past to the mere constraints of the current world.
Except that we do know what the evidence shows, and what it shows is consistent old age from one measuring system to another.
Can you explain that consistency -- why they all come to the same results with high degrees of consilience?
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 596 of 1498 (823048)
11-05-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 591 by starman
11-05-2017 1:53 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
I seem to remember you could not even so much as produce a good pic of the inner tree rings for the bristlecone despite, if I recall having a family member in the field? Ha. ...
You appear to confuse me with someone else.
... Now you want to tell us that it all looks alike?
The pattern is consistent from year to year, decade to decade, millennia to millennia. Curiously the tree rings can be observed for the because it was cut down to count the rings.
quote:
... We may never know the true story of what happened to Prometheus, but we do know one thing for certain; Currey had permission from the Forest Service to have the tree cut down. Counting the rings later revealed that Prometheus contained 4,862 growth rings. ...
The stump of Prometheus is all that remains of the ancient giant within the grove. If you would like to travel through history by counting the rings of Prometheus, you can do so at the Great Basin National Park visitor center.
And you can also observe with your own eyes their consistent character of annual growth rings.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
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