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Author Topic:   I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the continuing oppression of Palestinians?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 68 (815997)
07-27-2017 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by dronestar
07-27-2017 12:41 PM


Re: Nope, CatsI is pathetically wrong
And this is exactly what you are doing CatsI. You are already aware of my body of work of evidence on the forum. I can even show you additional facts from the UN, Human Rights groups, and Health Organizations. I can list opinions of Palestinians who are currently living the hell of Israel's cruel oppression. I can show you photos of dead Palestinian children without limbs.
When it comes to Israel-Palestinian relations thre is likely to be such a fog of propaganda even judging such photos is nowhere near as obvious as you are implying. You seem to be utterly ignoring the provocations of the Palestinians against Israel for instance, the deaths to Israelis they have caused, the constant din of hatred toward Israel that is part of their religion and now embedded in world opinion as well. Certainly the Palestinian people are oppressed but most of that comes from the Arab world, not from Israel, from their own Palestinian leaders who take all the aid given for their improvement and use it for other purposes. It does not come from Israel. It is useful to keep the Palestinians as pawns for making Israel out to be the bad guy and keep up the stream of hatred toward Israel. Unfortunately I'm not up on recent developments -- since I haven't followed this thread carefully I may have missed any actual facts you've offered -- but the historical facts are as I'm describing them. I'm sure Israel is at fault in many ways, but unless you give some sense of being aware of the other side of the story I can't take your assessment very seriously. Well seriously OK because propaganda is powerful and dangerous but I'm sure you know I mean I can't take it as truthful.
The facts are that Israel oppressively controls the water, food, employment, electricity, movement, and health care of Palestinians.
What are your sources for this? Considering all the aid Israel has given to help build up the Palestinians, which has not benefitted them thanks to reasons I've mentioned above, there has to be some historical information that you are not taking into account here if there is even any truth to this claim.
Israel has murdered hundred times more innocent Palestinian civilians (collective punishment is a war crime) than Islamic terrorists have murdered in Israel.
Your sources? You really do need to consider that you may not be getting the whole truth.
Israel even made studies to find out what minimal food sustenance is needed to prevent mass starvation to make sure their genocide is kept under the world's radar.
I have a feeling you are confining yourself only to the pro-Palestinian propaganda. And that would include the UN.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2017 12:41 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2017 2:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 68 (816002)
07-27-2017 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by dronestar
07-27-2017 2:44 PM


a civil exchange
I must say that your response also made me wonder if we were still at EvC. What a nice post, thank you.
Now I have to do some research. I hope I'm up to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2017 2:44 PM dronestar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 68 (816005)
07-27-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by dronestar
07-27-2017 2:44 PM


Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Since I am familiar with many campaigns to smear Israel, the first thing I looked for was something about the photos you claim show Israeli atrocities against Palestinians, and was surprised to so quickly turn up information about exactly what I suspected: journalistic fraud for the purpose of making Israel look like a genocidal monster.
A Palestinian Journalist's Blood Libel Against Israel:
In their ongoing quest to demonize and delegitimize the Jewish State, Palestinian journalists and bloggers have resorted to distortion, obfuscation and outright falsehoods to advance their pernicious propaganda. Photos of civilian casualties or property damage are routinely photo-shopped and sometimes copied and pasted from entirely different theaters. Thus, Syrian casualties resulting from Assad’s barrel bomb assaults and other regime inspired atrocities are passed off as Palestinian casualties and victims of Israeli aggression.
Often times, these photos go viral on social media and may even filter their way into irresponsible mainstream media outlets with poor vetting processes. Independent watchdog groups and bloggers cognizant of the Palestinian proclivity to smear and defame are vigilant and remain constantly on the lookout for these fabrications; shaming those who wittingly play host to these odious calumnies. Thus radical leftist and 9-11 conspiracy wacko Rosie O’Donnell was outed and shamed when she was caught hawking fabricated artwork depicting a purported injured Palestinian child from Gaza when in fact, the photo was of a wounded child from Aleppo Syria, injured as a result of action taken by Assad’s enforcers. O’Donnell was unapologetic but promptly removed the fictional artwork from her website.
But Pallywood — the Palestinian tendency to conjure up sensationalist, anti-Israel fables for media consumption — reached its zenith with a recent Twitter post by award winning journalist Mohammed Omer. On May 10, Omer, who has written for the virulently anti-Israel rag Electronic Intifada as well as the Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet — the discredited paper that falsely claimed that IDF soldiers were harvesting Palestinian organs — posted a photo along with commentary that was outrageous even by Palestinian standards. In fact, the post can best be described as a modern-day blood libel akin to the often repeated Palestinian claim that Jews use the blood of non-Jews as a key ingredient in Passover Matzah.
The photo was of a young, armless and legless Palestinian child named Mohammed al-Farra accompanied by the following commentary; One of the last #Gaza war victims #RememberThoseChildren. It is a gut-wrenching, moving photo that provokes emotion from any viewer and that is precisely what it is designed to do. Except there’s one problem with Omer’s post; it is entirely false.
Omer likely lifted the photo from Israel's Tel Hashomer hospital website, which is where the photo was taken. Al-Farra was born with a rare genetic disease that required amputation of his limbs. The Palestinian authorities in Gaza refused to cover the cost of his medical care and the stigmatized child was subsequently abandoned by his uncaring parents. Al-Farra’s grandfather assumed the role of parent and managed to get the child to Tel Hashomer hospital where al-Farra received premium medical care covered by Israeli fundraising activity....
I also think of the Israelis as committed to avoiding civilian casualties in their attacks on their enemies, contrary to the propaganda that accuses them of genocidal intent, along with Palestinian refusal to evacuate areas targeted by Israel and warned by Israel to evacuate; and here's an article that addresses that: Who Is Killing Palestinian Children?
Political differences aside, few will disagree that Palestinian children are innocent victims of the on-going hostilities in Gaza. Israel’s air strikes, aimed to defend its citizens from Hamas’ terrorization, resulted in civilian casualties, which included child victims. Yet, none other than Hamas, the rulers of Gaza, are responsible for the general humanitarian crisis there and for scores of killed, wounded, and traumatized children.
Civilian fatalities are inevitable in any war, and thus far there are 230 in Gaza, despite a painstakingand largely successful--effort of the Israelis to minimize collateral casualties. There is sufficient documentary evidence to show that Israeli pilots have cancelled scheduled air strikes after having spotted children and other innocents close to sites designated for destruction. On the other hand, since the outbreak of the war, the Hamas government repeatedly ordered citizens to ignore Israel’s warnings to evacuate before the strikes: residents were to remain inside their houses and not to collaborate with the enemy.[ii] Hamas punishment for collaborators has always been death,[iii] and many Gazans might have chosen to take a chance with their lives and those of their families rather than to defy terrorists in power.
Palestinians are the prime victims of their oppressive, brutal, criminal, semi-totalitarian administration. They are as afraid of their Hamas leaders as Russians were terrified of the Bolsheviks in their day. To expect to hear a sincere opinion of a Gaza citizen about any current political issue is like waiting for a terrorized captive of Stalin’s regime to express his independent view on Soviet foreign policy. The Israeli soldiers understand that they are forced to fight Hamas among the population which is held hostage.[iv]
Haven't yet found anything on the claim that Israel controls Palestinian water and electricity and everything else but here's a page of headlines that turned up at Frontpage when I searched.
ABE: I know I shouldn't throw a whole Google page at you but sometimes it helps to get across the range of opinion on a certain subject just through its list of headlines. I hope I can come back and put up some more detailed information on all this but as you can see there is a lot of it out there contradicting the claim that the Palestinians are the victims, or the only victims.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by dronestar, posted 07-27-2017 2:44 PM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 5:04 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 68 (816042)
07-28-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Riggamortis
07-28-2017 5:04 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
My quotes from Frontpagemag were chosen to prove that some claims made by Dronestar in his Message 22 about Israel maiming Palestinian children were in fact Palestinian propaganda. He had believed, for instance, that certain photos really show Israeli atrocities against Palestinians, but the evidence mustered by FPM shows that the photos of maimed children were either not about Palestinians, rather Syrians maimed by Assad, or in one case caused by a necessary medical procedure in a hospital, not about military action at all. Looks to me like FPM succeeded in showing that it WAS Palestinian propaganda, mustered good evidence against it. Dronestar had not offered evidence.
I would also predict that your quote from Amnesty International is basically propaganda, taken out of context. I will have to see if I can track down some evidence for that.
ABE: For instance: Israeli action that "demolishes homes" has usually been because the home is in reality an arsenal, or as I recall in some cases covers a tunnel for smuggling weapons. But that side of things isn't reported, so it always looks like Israel's actions are senseless. Also, as one of the FPM quotes mentions, the Palestinian leaders, Hamas in other words, don't make any effort to protect their own people from such attacks, even when warned by Israel in advance of their intended target. Even so, Israel takes pains to avoid civilian casualties. There will always be some anyway, but Hamas is responsible for many of them, their motive as usual being to point the finger at Israel. The fake photos have that purpose, so does keeping their people in harm's way when Israel plans a military operation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 5:04 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 12:47 PM Faith has replied
 Message 37 by Taq, posted 07-28-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 68 (816068)
07-28-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Riggamortis
07-28-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
I haven't been talking about the settlements, that's a change of subject which only distracts from the point I was making, which is that the photos referred to by Dronestar were propaganda fakes, and attempts to tar Israel with unconcern over civilian deaths are also propaganda promoted by Hamas' refusal to evacuate civilians warned of an attack.
If you want to talk about settlements I will have to read up on them but for the moment it's just a way to distract from the evidence of propaganda that is not disputable.
The legality of the settlements is disputed, and their necessity is tied in Israel's perspective to security from Palestinian attacks. That's all I know about that issue at the moment so I'll have to research the subject, but if this much is true it's obviously more evidence of total bias against Israel with no concern for fairness whatever. A complete and utter refusal to consider Israel's point of view is evident in most posts to this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 12:47 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 68 (816075)
07-28-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Riggamortis
07-28-2017 12:47 PM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Thought your post deserved a somewhat more specific reply than the one I gave.
Ok Faith, every human rights organisation in the world condemns Israel as part of the greater Muslim conspiracy to take over the world, is that about right?
I see no relation whatever between this comment and what I wrote, which gave evidence that photos purported to be of Palestinian children suffering on account of Israeli military action were in fact fake. Shouldn't you have acknowledged this?
And I gave another quote which referred to a common practice of the Palestinian leaders of keeping the civilian population exposed to danger even when Israel has given warning of their intent to strike what they know to be a weapons stronghold which was planted among civilians in typical Hamas style. This kind of tactic has been known for decades, obviously designed to discourage Israelis from attacking, precisely BECAUSE they know Israelis do not want to endanger civilians, contrary to the propaganda. So Israel gives a warning and in typical fashion the leaders prevent civilians from leaving the area. Israel then sometimes will not carry through a strike or will attempt to be surgical about it to spare the population.
None of this ever gets acknowledged by those who prefer to believe the propaganda. In most situations there are usually two sides to a story. You may side with one over the other even in taking note that there is some merit to the other side's position, but in this case not a shred of merit is considered for a moment. No, in this case, despite years of evidence that the Palestinians have been acting in bad faith in every dispute it is Israel that is treated as the villain. Totally, absolutely and strangely. Not a shred of merit to their position. And yet I can find lots of evidence of Palestinian deceit. Odd.
From now on I'll keep in mind that when you use the term propaganda, you really mean things with which you disagree.
Based on what? Nothing I've said, that's for sure. I showed that there is definitely propaganda against Israel by the Palestinian leaders, propaganda that is presented by people here as the truth. Shouldn't you instead be realizing you've been deceived by those photos and other deceits by Hamas?
urce provided very little to support its claims beyond random quotes from alleged authority figures. Further, the existence of some photos released by vested interests in the conflict that are illegitimate do not constitute evidence of Amnesty International being involved in the distribution of propaganda.
The fact that some photos can be traced to Syria that were purported to be of Palestinian origin is pretty good evidence for propaganda in the service of smearing Israel with lies. And another photo purported to be of a child maimed by Israeli military attack which turns out to be of a Palestinian child born with a disease that required the amputation of his limbs, which was done by caring Israelis in an Israeli hospital, where the photo was found, is also evidence of such a smear campaign.
The evidence is quite clear yet you dismiss it with a few absurd comments about "authority figures" and "vested interests?" What? The vested interests in this case are the Palestinian propagandists, but here you are joining in their propaganda efforts to smear Israel. Why? What is this determination to demonize Israel? Where is it coming from? What possesses you to take such an absurd position?
The rest of your post brings up other subjects. Which would be fine except that in this case they serve only to ignore the facts I've already given that demonstrate that there is a smear campaign against Israel. And that being the case with those facts there is every reason to suspect there is probably some of the same in the other issues you bring up. But as I said I will need to research those issues.
Meanwhile what you really ought to do is consider that your post misrepresented my points and maligned me as well as Israel. You might apologize.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Riggamortis, posted 07-28-2017 12:47 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 12:38 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 68 (816080)
07-29-2017 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 12:38 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Apparently I misunderstood you, for which I apologize, although your sentence doesn't read to me like an acknowledgment of the propaganda. And I guess I missed the reference to Amnesty International in that context, although I regard them along with other international bodies as unfair to Israel.
Demonstrating that there have been hundreds of instances of misleading pictures and news stories doesn't demonstrate that Israel is not guilty of all charges.
That's utterly ridiculous. Since the propaganda is intended to bring those charges in the first place of course it shows them not guilty of those invented by the propaganda.
That human rights orgs and intergovernmental agencies are saying they are illegally occupying territory and committing war crimes is pretty solid evidence that their is at least some truth to the claims.
Not at all. I'm only too aware that we live in a world these days where lies have way too much influence on public opinion. There is good reason to argue that Israel is not illegally occupying anything, and they are certainly not guilty of war crimes except according to the usual weird Leftist conjurings, and the existence of such accusations is far from proving truth at all.
Smear campaign or not, they are committing atrocities.
Oh well, every conversation here ends up with Leftist lies and this one is no exception. I shouldn't ever expect anything else.
As I said I will need to do some research to continue the discussion. But your accusation of Islamophobia doesn't suggest I'll find much fairness on your part. All I've argued so far concerns quite provable propaganda against Israel and you reduce that to "Islamophobia?" Perhaps I should accuse you of anti-Semitism then-- because if my political views of the Israel-Palestinian situation are to be dismissed as a personal irrational attitude rather than an objective argument, those on the other side certainly deserve to be accused of anti-Semitism. Let me put it this way: If you continue to call me an Islamophobe I will certainly answer by calling you an anti-Semite. Just so the conversation can be kept on the same level.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 12:38 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 3:37 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 68 (816089)
07-29-2017 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
back later.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 68 (816093)
07-29-2017 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
That's utterly ridiculous. Since the propaganda is intended to bring those charges in the first place of course it shows them not guilty of those invented by the propaganda.
Yes, those specific charges. Not all charges levelled by all parties. That's the fact you keep ignoring. Yet my completely self evident point is 'utterly ridiculous'
The ONLY charges I was discussing were the ones created by propaganda. We have not yet discussed others so I have not ignored them and they are utterly irrelevant at this point in the discussion. I can't discuss them; until I've spent some more time researching them. But the fact that there are false trumped-up accusations of Israel out there that are BELIEVED BY PEOPLE SUCH AS DRONESTAR, strikes me as a very big deal in the whole political context of the Israel-Palestinian conflicts and for you to deny that is hard to account for. Then you supposedly acknowledge it and dismiss it as a big nothing. Sorry, that's a debate foul.
All I've argued so far concerns quite provable propaganda against Israel and you reduce that to "Islamophobia?"
As with your potential charge of anti-semitism, if you can quote me charging you specifically with islamaphobia I will consider whether it was justified based its context then retract and apologise for it or stand by it as I see fit. I have claimed that your sources contain obviously islamaphobic undertones which I guess I should now substantiate. From the unbiased-not-propaganda front page mag-
FPM writes:
There is a gaping fallacy in this inventory of fault-finding: it is Hamas which is the prime user of collective punishment in Gaza; it is Hamas, which abuses and exploits its own people for the sake of maintaining power; like any and all other dictatorial regimes, it is the real cause of suffering of its people. Truly innocent sacrifices among the Hamas victims are Palestinian children.
From your second link, not blatant islamaphobia yet, I'll get to that. This link first compares Hamas to Stalins regime before 'conceding' that Hamas was democratically elected so are more analogous to the nazis. It rants about the fake pictures and such and then concludes with the quoted text. It ultimately rationalises the justification for Israels violent, oppressive actions by blaming Hamas violent, oppressive actions. Deaths caused directly by Israel are Hamas fault therefore Israel is good and Hamas evil. Nice way to be able to make it so black and white huh?
This is the hypocritical, islamaphobic article I was referring to before....
But this is a common strategy of Hamas and it does make them guilty of putting their own people in harm's way. Intentionally, for the usual purpose of propaganda against Israel that for some reason you and so many others don't question. Otherwise Israel is within its rights to defend itself militarily against its enemies.
The article makes factual statements, which in defending against anti-Semitism you say are exempt from such a charge. In fact your statements about Israel are false...
"Aren't {anti-Semitic}
'Jewish people/Israel committed x atrocity'
'Jews immigrated to Palestine in large numbers under British rule in what appears to have been a coordinated effort to undermine the Palestinian claim to the land'" *
...so if the statements about Hamas are also false that shouldn't make a difference to their not deserving to be called Islamophobia. In fact I can't grasp what you think deserves that term in any case. It makes no sense.
You then quote statements about the squelching of free speech in Muslim nations, and the similar effect of Political Correctness in the west. And go on with:
Israel also imprisons people who refuse military service and has passed legislation to silence NGO's who speak against its HR violations. The first paragraph claims ironically in the context of this thread, that Muslim dictatorships are the primary threat to free speech. The second clearly promotes the fallacious idea that extreme Islam is some fundamental, existential threat to western society. This is islamaphobia, being an irrational fear.
So "Islamophobia" is just the usual Leftist lie since it is not at all irrational to point out that Islam is an ideology that seeks to take the world for Allah under a universal caliphate. It's stated in their holy books and it's stated by all their leaders and yet the Left objects when someone points it out. What's irrational is the blindness and deafness of the Left to the truth about Islam.
The truth of the matter is that if you look at it objectively, there's no real difference between Hamas or the Taliban or the Israeli and US militaries outside the 'legitimacy' of the state. Both sides kill people in order to further their geo-political aims. Western militaries are not immune from committing atrocities not disimilar to the Islamic militants. When a suicide bomber attacks the west, its no different to a US drone strike at a wedding. Remove all the fluff and you're just picking a side and rationalising murder.
That's a lot of accusations without a shred of evidence. How you can say such things without feeling the need to try to make a case for it is astonishing. Even if I agreed that western military interventions are often wrong it would not be the same thing as suicide bombing, which is decreed by the religion of Islam. That false equivalence alone disqualifies your whole argument. But it's also irrelevant, just changing the subject again. There is no such thing as Islamophobia, that's just Leftist PC to smear people who tell the truth about Islam.
==========
*I'm not sure what time period you are talking about here, but there was in fact no such thing as a Palestinian people when Israel started settling the region, so there would have been no reason to undermine any supposed Palestinian claim to the land. The people who lived there were a motley bunch scattered widely across what was largely a wilderness, different Arab tribes and also some Jews. Later, the Palestinian refugees were people from various Arab nations who had come to get work in Israel when they were building up their land. There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, that was invented for the refugees who had been made refugees by the Arab nations that declared war on Israel, warning the Arabs to leave to protect themselves. They were not Israeli citizens and they were not "Palestinians" and the Arab countries should have taken them back, but it suited them to use them as pawns to try to discredit Israel. So your notion that the Jewish immigrants came in such great numbers for the purpose of depriving some Palestinian natives of their land is one of those big fat propaganda lies. If you are talking about the period after WWII they were hardly concerned with anything but creating a safe haven for the Jews who had been persecuted and murdered in such huge numbers under the Nazis.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 3:37 AM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 8:06 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 48 of 68 (816124)
07-29-2017 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 8:06 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
I don't know how much of your post I can get to but for now I have to take it piecemeal.
The Palestinian people you claim didn't exist were promised their land in return for fighting on the allies side in WW1 prior to the British commitment to grant Israel to the Jewish people. Post WW1 the Palestinians were denied their land by League of Nations mandate and the Jews began migrating to the area that had been known as Palestine for hundreds of years under Ottoman rule.
Your assertion that Palestinians didn't exist or that they have no legitimate claim to the land is patently false.
The land had been "known as Palestine for hundreds of years under Ottoman rule," yes, but the people now called Palestinians were not there for all that time. Most of them arrived there in the late 19th century, according to the following:
Frontpagemag writes:
Why can any ‘Moishe Pipik’ from Brooklyn go to live in Israel, but I, a child of Palestinian parents living in the USA, cannot go back to my ancestral homeland, Palestine, where our families lived since time immemorial?
The response to that question may be useful to readers who find themselves confronted with similar questions by friends, relatives, colleagues, or others.
The first thing to note is that Palestinians have not been living in Palestine (now Israel) from time immemorial. Turkish and British records are clear that Palestine was flooded with Arab immigrants from the late 1850’s onward due to the salutary effects of British colonial and Zionist developments from the mid-19th century onward. Groundbreaking work on the Arab historical demography of Palestine during the second half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th centuries has been done by Professor Justin McCarthy in his book The Population of Palestine: Population History and Statistics of the Late Ottoman Period and the Mandate (Institute for Palestine Studies Series), summarized here. McCarthy, not a Jew nor an Israeli nor a Zionist, writing for a Palestinian institute, demonstrates that the Arab population of Palestine almost quadrupled from c. 1855 to 1947. Only a tiny minority of Arabs can claim ancestral attachment to this territory, and even those claims are based solely on anecdotal accounts for which there is no empirical evidence.
Links to the mentioned book by Justin McCarthy are in the FPM article.
So was it these recently-arrived Arabs that were supposedly promised the land? Is residence there for only a few decades or in many cases much less time sufficient to identify them as "Palestinians" with a right to the land? Do you have a reference to the actual agreement you are talking about?
I'm sure this historical situation is complex and far from open-and-shut on either side, but one thing is certain and that is that the vast majority of Arab "Palestinians" arrived roughly concurrently with the Jewish migration and had no ancient right to the land. If they had any other legal right to it is something to consider, but at least it isn't based on having lived there "from time immemorial" as is so often claimed.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 8:06 AM Riggamortis has replied

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 Message 51 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 10:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 49 of 68 (816127)
07-29-2017 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 8:06 AM


Re: Some Evidence of Smear Propaganda Against Israel. Phony photos for instance
Reading up on some history of Jewish immigration to Israel I don't get any impression that any of it was motivated by the desire to displace the Arabs, but entirely by persecution in their countries of origin. The first waves were from Russia, then one from Poland and Hungary, and then just before WWII those fleeing Nazism began to enter. About this time the Palestinian Arabs began to complain and become violent, and the British laid restrictions on Jewish immigration as a result.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 52 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 10:33 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 54 of 68 (816133)
07-30-2017 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 10:01 PM


The question of the right to the land
Please please please let's try to keep this subject from getting too unwieldy. My reason for bringing up the population of the area was to show that there is no justification for Arabs in Palestine to claim a right to the land based on inhabiting it for many generations, and you DID say something to that effect though now you are saying something different.
Faith writes:
If they had any other legal right to it is something to consider, but at least it isn't based on having lived there "from time immemorial" as is so often claimed.
Yeah, that is not my claim.
When you said the area was called Palestine for hundreds of years under the Ottomans you seemed to me to be implying that the people who had lived there over those hundreds of years had a prior right to the land.
Did you say that and did I understand it rightly? Can we at least clear up this much?
I had no other reason for showing that the Arab population there was recent and not ancient.
Now you are denying that you claimed that. What's the truth here?
That the Arabs in Palestine do have a legitimate claim to an Arab state is. At least they did back then,...
And your basis for this opinion is what, the McMahon letters to Hussein? Please let's keep the argument as clear as possible. If you are not basing the Arab claim to the land on ancient occupation of it, then is the McMahon letter or letters the reason for the claim?
I've no idea what the real solution is to the current mess.
It is certainly a major mess but it would be easier to address if there weren't all this contradictory historical mess behind it, with the British granting the Arabs the land and then granting the Jews the land without reference to the other grant.
HOWEVER, although these grants by Britain are brought up as part of the mess the usual claims are different. That is, the Arab Palestinians DO claim to have occupied the land "from time immemorial." That has been shown to be false, so that much at least should be eliminated from the discussion.
And I don't think we need to discuss the population issue any more. The only point of bringing it up was as I said, to show that the Arab population had not been there forever so that the basis for their claim can't be ancient residence.
Can we agree on this and get this part of the mess out of the way?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 10:01 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Riggamortis, posted 07-30-2017 2:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 68 (816134)
07-30-2017 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 10:33 PM


The right to the land continued: motivations and viewpoint
More things that need to be sorted out.
...and the British laid restrictions on Jewish immigration as a result.
Yeah they did but the promises that were made weren't about limiting Jewish immigration.
True, so let's eliminate those restrictions from the discussion for now too.
I don't get any impression that any of it was motivated by the desire to displace the Arabs, but entirely by persecution in their countries of origin.
If I'm fleeing someone who wants to persecute me for my atheism and I come across your house and forcibly occupy it against your wishes, I'm sure you'd be upset about it. My motive doesn't justify it.
But this is not the point. You had said that Jewish immigration was motivated by the desire to eliminate the Arab claim to the land by their population.
Please acknowledge that you did say that.
That is why I commented that in the presentation of the Jewish "aliyahs" to Israel I found no such motive, just the motivation to flee persecution.
Are you willing to accept that as the motivation or do you still want to argue that at least some of it was intended to remove Arab claims to the land?
My impression overall is that the Jews moved to Palestine because they understood that the land had been given to them for a Jewish haven, meaning by the Balfour statement. Would you agree with this?
I would further guess that the McMahon letter to Hussein was not known to the Jews. Would you agree with this?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 10:33 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 56 of 68 (816135)
07-30-2017 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 10:33 PM


How much of the problem is due to the British contradictory statements?
If I'm fleeing someone who wants to persecute me for my atheism and I come across your house and forcibly occupy it against your wishes, I'm sure you'd be upset about it. My motive doesn't justify it.
Which is why I asked if you'd agree that the Jewish motivation hinged on their belief the land had been given to them by the Balfour declaration. From the Arab point of view based on the McMahon letter they would be regarded as illegal occupiers, but as for their own intentions they thought they had a legal right to be there.
Again, will you agree to this?
Then we have to think about how much of the current ongoing problem was created by this contradiction between those letters which raised such different expectations on both sides. This can of worms, or bag of gremlins, gets discussed to some extent in this Wikipedia article on the McMahon correspondence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 10:33 PM Riggamortis has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 57 of 68 (816136)
07-30-2017 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Riggamortis
07-29-2017 10:33 PM


Anti-semitism
Funnily enough, anti-semitism was actually a worldwide thing, here's what wiki has to say on US anti-semitism -
Antisemitism in the United States was also indicated by national public opinion polls taken from the mid nineteen thirties to the late nineteen forties. The results showed that over half the American population saw Jews as greedy and dishonest. These polls also found that many Americans believed that Jews were too powerful in the United States. Similar polls were also taken, one of which posed that 35—40 percent of the population was prepared to accept an anti-Jewish campaign.
In a 1938 poll, approximately 60 percent of the respondents held a low opinion of Jews, labeling them "greedy," "dishonest," and "pushy."[24] 41 percent of respondents agreed that Jews had "too much power in the United States," and this figure rose to 58 percent by 1945. In 1939 a Roper poll found that only thirty-nine percent of Americans felt that Jews should be treated like other people. Fifty-three percent believed that "Jews are different and should be restricted" and ten percent believed that Jews should be deported.[25] Several surveys taken from 1940 to 1946 found that Jews were seen as a greater threat to the welfare of the United States than any other national, religious, or racial group.[26]
What is your point here?
Would you agree that if it was worldwide in that earlier period, it is likely it is still a big part of the attitude toward Israel that we see in the various international condemnations?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Riggamortis, posted 07-29-2017 10:33 PM Riggamortis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Riggamortis, posted 07-30-2017 3:03 AM Faith has replied

  
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