Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,468 Year: 3,725/9,624 Month: 596/974 Week: 209/276 Day: 49/34 Hour: 0/5


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 97 of 423 (615856)
05-17-2011 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Buzsaw
05-17-2011 8:55 AM


Re: What Is Money?
The last year you could take your paper notes to the bank and trade for solid silver was 1964. Just about everyting you buy today is at least 10 times higher than that period. Many things are much higher.
I've never understood why people think paper money that is backed by an equally useless and much heavier element is somehow better. You can't eat silver. You can't build a house with it. You can't water your crops with it. You can't clothe your children with it. What practical use does silver have that paper money does not, other than making pretty shiny things?
And if you think that there was no inflation when the dollar was backed by silver or gold, think again. Why don't you compare prices between 1964 and 1914. Using the inflation calculator here $3.20 in 1964 was the same as $1.00 in 1914. Yep, inflation even with currency backed by gold and silver.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Buzsaw, posted 05-17-2011 8:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2011 5:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 102 of 423 (615870)
05-17-2011 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by crashfrog
05-17-2011 5:43 PM


Re: What Is Money?
Not only is inflation present during the period when the US was on a precious metals standard, it's higher then than at any subsequent point.
Judging from the graph, the economy was less stable while on the precious metal standard. One of the advantages of being off a gold/silver standard is that it is easier to manipulate the economy to prevent big swings in inflation/deflation. In my notoriously uninformed opinion, if we were still on a gold standard the current recession may have turned into this generation's Great Depression.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2011 5:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2011 8:14 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 121 of 423 (615926)
05-18-2011 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Buzsaw
05-18-2011 11:10 AM


Re: Good Inflation......? Bad Inflation.....?
I'm all eyes and ears. Tell me about hyperinflation and busting of the $$ in the 19th and 20th century in America. I've lived 2/3 of the 20th century and it never happened until the $$ couldn't be cashed for silver. In 1900 you could buy a solid oak dining set for around $30 and eggs for a nickel or so a dozen.
Did you see the graph in message #99? It was quite obvious that hyperinflation was much more common while the dollar was on a precious metals standard than when it was pulled off that standard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2011 11:10 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2011 12:34 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 126 of 423 (615937)
05-18-2011 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
05-18-2011 12:34 PM


Re: Good Inflation......? Bad Inflation.....?
Yes, I saw the graph. Did you notice that after fluctuating the $$ stabalized again rather than inflate into oblivion as the course we are on today?
It fluctuates through the entire graph. The difference is that the fluctuations are less severe after the dollar was removed from the precious metal standard. Hyperinflation was much worse when the dollar was on a precious metal standard. That is what the graph shows.
Also, there are several spikes on that graph that are many times worse than current inflation rates, and these spikes occurred when we were on a precious metal standard. The most stable inflationary periods are seen during periods when we were off of the precious metal standard, the exact opposite of what you are claiming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2011 12:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2011 12:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 129 of 423 (615941)
05-18-2011 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
05-18-2011 12:54 PM


Re: Good Inflation......? Bad Inflation.....?
The best we can do is banish the Federal Reserve, give the coining of currency back to Congress where it is Constitutionally suppose to be, . . .
The power is with Congress. They oversee the Federal Reserve and approve appointments. The whole point of having the Federal Reserve is to create a buffer between politics and policy. Those that run the Federal Reserve are focused on improving the economy instead of getting re-elected. If interest rates become a political football instead of sound policy then the economy can only worsen.
eliminate the income tax and reign in government size and regulative powers etc.
Before income taxes the government raised money through tariffs. This greatly increased the price of imported goods. If you think income tax is bad, just wait until those cheap imported goods are no longer cheap. This will shift the tax burden more heavily towards those with the lowest incomes, to those who are least able to pay taxes. On top of that, trying to produce these cheap goods in the US will only lead to reduction of wages making the problem even worse. Taxes have to come from somewhere. It seems to me that the best system is to tax people based on their ability to pay tax. That is what an income tax is.
As to the size of government, it is not the size that is the problem. It is the effectiveness of government that needs to be fixed. If your tax dollars provide something of value then that is a tax dollar well spent. It doesn't matter how large the government is if those tax dollars produce valuable resources. For example, let's say that 30% of income goes to taxes and 10% of your income goes towards paying for health care. If the government created an effective health care program that required your taxes to go from 30% to 35% you would actually have more money in your pocket.
Your last suggestion is perhaps the worst one of all. You really need to study your history on this one. Some of the worst labor and environmental conditions existed prior to government regulation. If you want to return to the days where people were paid in chits that had to be spent at the company store then forgive me for not sharing your vision of the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2011 12:54 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 137 of 423 (615960)
05-18-2011 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Buzsaw
05-18-2011 12:56 PM


Re: Good Inflation......? Bad Inflation.....?
Taq, You're ignoring my point, that the $$ was never in danger as it is today.
You would actually need to make that point in order for me to ignore it. The US dollar is the globe's currency. You would have a tough time finding any currency right now that is going to weather the next 10 years better than the US dollar. This is why China adopted the US dollar as their currency and not the Euro or any other currency. They aren't stupid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Buzsaw, posted 05-18-2011 12:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Theodoric, posted 05-18-2011 3:21 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 140 of 423 (615971)
05-18-2011 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Theodoric
05-18-2011 1:41 PM


Re: Good Inflation......? Bad Inflation.....?
The fall of the Spanish Empire can be partially attributed to influx of gold and silver from the new world. The huge inflow of gold and silver destroyed the Spanish economy.
Imagine if we backed our currency with diamonds. The Russians would have us by the balls. They have been sitting on mountains of diamonds for decades now, as have the big diamond cartels. All they would need to do to crash the US economy would be to dump the diamonds into the market. The US dollar could lose half of it's value in the matter of a few days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Theodoric, posted 05-18-2011 1:41 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(8)
Message 234 of 423 (695168)
04-03-2013 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Phat
04-02-2013 11:16 PM


Re: Chicken Little and PT Barnum
I take it you dont believe in any global catastrophes in the near future....which is logical...
What I never understood is what good gold will do you in a global catastrophe. You can't eat it. It's actually pretty heavy, so it's hard to pack around. You can't build a shelter with it. Maybe you could make bullets out of it, or hit someone over the head with a smaller sized ingot, but that's about the best use I can find for it. At least paper money has the advantage of being lighter.
Pound for pound, I think I would invest in whiskey if the world is really going down the pooper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Phat, posted 04-02-2013 11:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ramoss, posted 04-03-2013 8:00 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 278 of 423 (816750)
08-10-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
08-10-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
Is it possible to do both? After World War II, with the rise of trade unions, some members actually were able to save money, raise a family, and own their own house...truly the beginning of a middle-class lifestyle. Now, we have promises from politicians to create more jobs...but these jobs are either entry level minimum wage jobs or they are highly skilled jobs that ---perhaps---Trump was trying to encourage in his recent legal immigration speech. The $30,000.00+ middle-class jobs are disappearing.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me that there is a strong correlation between a strong middle class and equitable distribution of income.
The Shift from Equitable to Inequitable Growth After 1980: Helping the Rich Has Not Helped the Not-So-Rich | An Economic Sense
Those halcyon years where the working class and middle class did pretty good? Those were the years where income was spread around a lot more than it is now. The problem with our current trickle down economy is the gusher going upwards.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 12:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 281 of 423 (816755)
08-10-2017 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
08-10-2017 2:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
Because in the meantime, I am suffering by working harder for less while waiting for the pack to catch up. At 57 years old, I can't very well put my retirement on hold simply to lift the poor downtrodden masses up. I don't see many other options, however. Both the working class and the diminishing middle class have more in common with each other than we do with the upper class.
It would appear to me that it is the top 1% that need to contribute to the working class, not the middle class. Instead of taking home massive profits, perhaps they could offer better wages and hire more people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 2:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 5:09 PM Taq has replied
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 11:53 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 283 of 423 (816758)
08-10-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Phat
08-10-2017 5:09 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
This is true, although we are at the opposite end of that political spectrum at the moment.
That is a fact that still puzzles me. A majority of blue collar workers vote for a political party that actively works against those same blue collar workers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Phat, posted 08-10-2017 5:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Porosity, posted 08-10-2017 8:20 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 293 of 423 (816804)
08-11-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
08-11-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:
That's the attitude that got us into this situation: The other guy should pay.
How does that attitude result in the largest economic inequality seen in decades?
Personally, I would rather pay the taxes myself and let the 1% keep all they can grasp.
Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 1:19 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 295 of 423 (816817)
08-11-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by ringo
08-11-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:
Never mind how large the economic inequity is. There has always been economic inequity and the attitude has always been: let the people with the most money pay. Instead, why not give the money to the people who work for it so they can afford to pay?
That doesn't really address the question I was asking. Previously, you said:
"That's the attitude that got us into this situation: The other guy should pay."
How does pushing for more economic equality result in more inequity?
If we pursue peace with a foreign country, will that attitude cause war? If we have the attitude that we should feed hungry people, would more people go hungry?
There has always been economic inequity and the attitude has always been: let the people with the most money pay. Instead, why not give the money to the people who work for it so they can afford to pay?
There used to be a lot less inequality, and there was a thriving middle and working class during those years.
Why not return to a time with strong unions that aren't continually busted by the mega-rich backed by their conservative Republican lackey's? Why not raise the minimum wage so that people can actually live off of it? Why not increase subsidies for health care so that the working class isn't pouring such a large percentage of their income into health care?
According to you, pushing for these things will only make economically inequality worse. Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 1:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 08-12-2017 11:41 AM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024