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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 103 of 283 (816881)
08-12-2017 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Phat
08-12-2017 2:40 PM


Re: Spending money Wherever Needed
Phat writes:
And then you get to teach your kids how to be less brutal, more efficient, and less nasty.
Yes, despite your god setting the entirety of life that way. We have to go against nature in order to make our short lives better.
The lesson is taught. The God of my imagination played you like a pawn in a chess game!
What lesson? That god is a pychopath that plays with us cruelly for his pleasure? What are you thinking? Apply your own morality to how the world is. How would you judge the maker of this world? Try to put aside you beliefs and look at the evidence - is this a world you would build if you could build one? Is it a moral system?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 08-12-2017 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 106 of 283 (816915)
08-13-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-13-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Actually, God did it is by far the simplest explanation.
It's certainly a simple thing to say, but how is it an explanation?
But the discussion is not about whether goddidit, the claim is that if he did, then he's a psychopath. So far you haven't said anything to refute that other than that you hope he isn't.
Why would a collection of mindless particles care about another collection of mindless particles that they have no connection with, have never met and that are using up available resources.
There are plenty of threads explaining this, this one happily assumes that goddidit but asks why he did it in the nasty and vicious way that he has given that he's an all powerful and loving being?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 10:21 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 9:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 110 of 283 (816944)
08-14-2017 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by GDR
08-13-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Firstly we don't know what other options there were for God.
God has limited options? This is a different god than is taught. But ok, this lessor god finds that the only kind of world he can build is one where every organism must compete to the death with every other just to survive long enough to reproduce, then die. And all sorts of fiendish mechanisms will be created to make it even harder to simply exist, like disease, parasitism and carnivorism. This system will continue for millions of years causing literally trillions of deaths and wiping out almost every species unlucky enough to evolve from it.
This is the ultimate Hunger Games. A more immoral and evil invention is hard to imagine. You now tell me that your god isn't godly enough to create a better system but knowing this he did it anyway? That's evil.
You seem to be maintaining the fundamentalist position that God being all powerful could add 2 and 2 and get blue.
I'm afraid your god can't get out of the trap. He's either powerful enough to have built a better world but didn't - in which case he's evil - or couldn't but did it anyway - in which case he's evil.
But really, are you telling me that this world is the very best your god could do? Can you really not imagine how it might be improved - even by a sickly god like you now say yours is?
I'm a Christian who believes that one can look to Jesus Christ to understand the true nature of God. In Jesus we can see a god who cares immensely about us and suffers with us in our suffering. We see in Jesus someone who was prepared to suffer a tortuous and humiliating death based on sacrificial love.
Well I'm an atheist and when I look at the evidence all around me I can see the true nature of this god of yours. I see babies starve slowly to death in famines, and, as I type, a crow killing and eating a baby magpie.
Jesus cares but the real boss god doesn't? This is the most bizarre rationalisation ever invented for our ruinous state of existence. And the idea that god sent Jesus here to torture and kill him and that this was a good thing is weird beyond belief. Is this the best plan he could devise? But in any case it didn't work did it? Jesus was obviously just another man, his death did not end this wordly suffering that your mythology predicted.
It seems to me then that in order to come to a world where love is fundamental to existence, then it requires a world something like our own.
This is just utterly crazy. In order for H. sapiens to have love, the world must have millions of year of suffering and death and the destruction of pretty much everything. Really???? This is the very best your god can do? You've swallowed every drop of apologetics ever devised and created an evil and pathetic god in the process. An ungodly god in all ways.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 9:25 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 6:45 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 12:58 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 1:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 112 of 283 (816947)
08-14-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
08-14-2017 6:45 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
You keep saying that as though it were true. Granted many of the current crop of apologists and TV Evangelical Hucksters try to sell that God but it is not what is actually described in the Bible.
I keep coming up against this problem - the problem that every believer believes something different even within the same belief. However, the general Christian belief system, the one that's taught to children and preached about is that of an all powerful, all knowing, everywhere god - the omni-god. There's a lot of back-peddling being done on this idea around here. God it seems is a bit weedy.
You also continue to miss the fact that the Bible often does describe a God that we should consider as evil.
Again, the view that the Christian god can be evil is not the one taught, nor is it the generally understood version held by Christians. The Christian god is an infinitely loving and generous god - just ask GDR.
I'm not disagreeing that the god described in the bible is a totally despotic bastard - that's rather my point - but that isn't the PR message is it?
But so far you have failed to show that the issues you describe really are evil.
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse?
(Not to mention what happens to you if you're born into the wrong religion after you leave this vale of suffering.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 6:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:17 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2017 10:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 114 of 283 (816951)
08-14-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
08-14-2017 9:17 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
So you keep asserting. But so far all you have is an unsupported assertion.
What exactly are you denying about it?
Again, you are simply showing your ignorance of what is taught, what is in the Bible and what GDR has said. Start actually reading all of what GDR has posted and quit taking pieces parts out of context to support your fantasies.
I am certainly not ignorant of what I was taught (as a Catholic), nor am I ignorant of what I hear being preached when I'm forced to attend various ceremonies hereabouts. I'm totally ignorant of what you've been taught of course - and that's a big issue, no-one believes the same things. No-one can say what Christian beliefs about god are.
I am saying that no such system has been shown to exist. You have repeatedly asserted that is the case but never provided any evidence that it is a depiction of reality as opposed to simply your caricature of reality.
Now you're just being disingenuous. It's a fact that all creatures die, pain and suffering exists, disease exist, all organisms compete or die, then die. Where is the unproven assertion?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 116 of 283 (816957)
08-14-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
08-14-2017 9:57 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
so why do you keep asserting such things exist?
I'm attempting to generalise and it's my view that the vast majority of Christians are taught and believe the simple message that god is all loving and all powerful. Disbelieve if you wish.
The unproven assertion is that that is evil.
How could it not be?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 10:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 123 of 283 (817006)
08-14-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by New Cat's Eye
08-14-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
Gosh, it's almost like we're people.
Yup, people making stuff up.
Without competition there is no growth. Complete stasis sounds worse to me.
You're just lacking in imagination - you can only think of this model. I ask again, is this the best a god can do?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2017 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 9:46 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 124 of 283 (817007)
08-14-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
08-14-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
It can not be evil by the same method used to call it evil; by human judgement but that does require one to think beyond simple binary choices.
I can't extract any meaning from this sentence. It's probably me; care to try again?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 10:55 AM jar has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 125 of 283 (817008)
08-14-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
08-14-2017 1:22 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Faith writes:
Majority Christianity has always taught that the Creation was severely damaged by the Fall, so why is this discussion going on as if what we have now is God's original Creation? Shouldn't you address what is actually Christian doctrine? Jesus had to come because of the Fall, His death redeems not only those who believe in Him but the whole Creation itself, which has suffered as a result all this time. That's standard Christian doctrine. The lion WILL lie down with the lamb in the redeemed Creation. It will be restored to its original beauty and peace at that time. That is standard Christian doctrine.
Oh Faith, that's so batshit crazy that virtually no modern Christian believes that nonsense any more. But this is the point - you all make such random stuff up that it's impossible to discuss it except one by one.
You'd think that would be enough to tell you it's all made up, but apparently not, us humans can and do believe anything and everything.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 1:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 6:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 126 of 283 (817009)
08-14-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Phat
08-14-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Phat writes:
Nor will your death or my death. Perhaps the worldly suffering was foreknown to spur many of us--those with a developed conscience, to get angry enough to do something about it.
What, pray, can we do about the death, pain and disease of the trillions of organism that suffered before god got around to evolving H. Sapens. And what can we do now? That's bonkers....
No God is needed. And even if One did exist, what good will it do you to waste time and energy complaining to Him? You may well think of Him (if He did exist) as a bastard, but your anger and protest can be used as the catalyst for you to try and correct the mistakes as you perceive them.
'You cannot be serious'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 12:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 128 of 283 (817029)
08-15-2017 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
08-14-2017 6:27 PM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
Faith writes:
As I said, it's the majority view and always has been. Where are you getting your information?
What proportion of Christians do you imagine believe in the literal truth of the creation story?
Even when I was being taught it as a child, we were told it was a story not a literal truth. Even in the US - which is a exceptionally primitive about religion compared to the rest of modern democracies - only 16% now think the bible is literally true
quote:
How many people are truly hardcore creationists? For that, you have to look at certainty across a range of statements. Hill’s data show a high correlation in responses to four propositions: that God created the world in six 24-hour days, that God created humans miraculously, that humans didn’t evolve from other life forms, and that Adam and Eve were real people. Sixteen percent of respondents said they were absolutely or very certain about all four of those beliefs. That’s the hardcore. And even that core isn’t as hard as advertised. Ask whether humans have been around for only 10,000 years, and the hardcorethose who are absolutely or very certain on all five questionsshrinks to 7 percent.
Creationism poll: How many Americans believe the Bible is literal, inerrant, or symbolic.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 3:01 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 131 of 283 (817038)
08-15-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
Yeah, that is how people come to conclusions. Often they differ.
Making stuff up is not the same as forming different conclusions. You're all supposed to be the same religion...
I think stasis is worse than competition.
And I think that's both a false choice and an unfounded assumption.
I ask again, is this the best a god can do? I don't know.
You're omnigod had only one choice? I think you yourself could have designed as less destructive enviroment, let alone your god. But in any case, if this is the best he could do, but did it anyway, he's culpable.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 9:46 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 10:53 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 11:59 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 145 of 283 (817100)
08-15-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
How does a thing grow without taking from something else?
It's only energy that is being used. There are a myriad of ways of powering organisms that don't require them to kill and eat other organisms.
For what it's worth: I don't have much use for the omni-stuff.
Yet your religion taught that principle for millenium - and still mostly does. Now you're allowed to form your own 'conclusions' ie, make stuff up.
But you're shying away from the negligence argument. In our ethical - and legal - code, to cause a harm by negligence - allowing something to happen that you should have or did foresee, but did allow or caused anyway - is culpable.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 10:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:04 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 3:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 147 of 283 (817102)
08-15-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Phat
08-15-2017 11:59 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Phat writes:
IF God had simply designed the environment as comfortable to us, we would simply be a bunch of couch potatoes with no character.
Phat, he made our world a vicious, disease ridden place were kill or be killed is a fact of life. Survivors then die. You're in a comfortable place now but our ancestors lived exactly like animals, they had no way to 'grow' - whatever that means. This entire thing is a nasty experiment - your god's playing with us like mice in a trap.
This is evil by any definition.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 11:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 151 of 283 (817107)
08-15-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:04 PM


Re: Why do you care?
You're missing the entire point. If god is evil, he can't be all loving. He can't be both careless and the Christian god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
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