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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 283 (744623)
12-13-2014 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
12-13-2014 2:57 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
Faith writes:
The Bible contains those ideas, Phat, Calvin did not make them up.
That's what is so great about scripture Faith; it is so filled with contradictions that any position, even one as evil as what Calvin marketed can be supported.
There is no need to make shit up (although Biblical Christians do seem hell bent on making shit up); just select the pieces parts out of context to support your position.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 12-13-2014 2:57 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 283 (744638)
12-13-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
12-13-2014 4:48 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
I have no idea what all that even means.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:59 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 283 (744641)
12-13-2014 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
12-13-2014 4:59 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
I still have no idea what your point is.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 4:59 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 6:24 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 283 (744645)
12-13-2014 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
12-13-2014 6:24 PM


the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Phat writes:
what is the difference between making stuff up and supporting your position? One could argue that everything is essentially made up when it comes to Faith & Belief.
Nonsense. It is not made up to say "This is what Calvin wrote" or "Here is what is written in Genesis 2&3". Those are not made up but rather statements that can be supported by actually looking at the texts.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-13-2014 6:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 04-08-2015 6:25 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 283 (744646)
12-13-2014 7:02 PM


on being wiser
Phat writes:
Are we any wiser today than John Calvin was?
I really hate seeing a term like "wiser" used without lots and lots of qualification.
Was Calvin wise at all? Does that even have any meaning? How could it be measured?
We certainly have far more knowledge today than Calvin. It would not be reasonable to expect Calvin to know that neither of the Biblical flood stories was factual, or that the Exodus and Conquest of Canaan stories were just myth. The evidence was simply not available to him.
Calvin simply had to work within the then available data and evidence.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 283 (744685)
12-14-2014 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
12-14-2014 3:28 PM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:
I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom. (except in the examples that you mentioned) I would agree that human concepts of religion and belief and even of GOD change over time, but the evidence won't change who GOD actually is nor what HE does.
What the hell is "theological wisdom"?
Phat writes:
I would agree that human concepts of religion and belief and even of GOD change over time, but the evidence won't change who GOD actually is nor what HE does.
What the hell does that even mean and how does it have any relevance to the topic?
Why do you post such tripe Phat?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 12-14-2014 3:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 283 (815515)
07-20-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
07-20-2017 5:02 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
Stop misrepresenting me Phat.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 07-20-2017 5:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 12:49 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 64 of 283 (815539)
07-21-2017 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
07-21-2017 12:49 AM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
No Phat, you went on to describe an assumption to me which is not one that I made.
The problem is that I don't think you even realize how often you do that. You said "jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it." which is NOT what I said or implied or suggested.
I said that the Warlord had food enough for everyone and so should have fed everyone. I did not say everyone had to eat.
But even beyond that, what does that have to do with Calvinism or Arminianism? Do you know what either entails?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 12:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 1:15 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 66 of 283 (815602)
07-21-2017 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
07-21-2017 1:15 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
Phat writes:
So could it be said that the Warlord takes the initiative to provide food for everyone yet they must respond by eating his provision in order to avoid starvation?
If you don't eat then eventually you starve.
Phat writes:
In the second example, must the warlord feed his enemies as well?
"Do you not destroy your enemies when you make them your friends?" That is certainly not an original quote by any means.
Did Jesus not tell us we should love our enemies?
As a practical example, if we had spent the money we used to fight the Gulf Wars and the fighting in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan in education and health care and infrastructure not just here but wherever it was needed isn't it likely we would have fewer "enemies"?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 07-21-2017 1:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 283 (815727)
07-23-2017 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
07-23-2017 3:54 PM


Original Sin is a convenient cop out.
Phat writes:
How do you see our behavior as relating to willful...if not original sin?
The concept of "Original Sin" is another great cop out to allow those who claim it to avoid responsibility for their own actions. It is a deplorable and pathetic excuse used by deplorable and pathetic people.
Phat writes:
Is war based on a profit motive and, if so, does this not prove intrinsic evil in human character?
That is yet another example of cop outs. Wars happen for many reasons and wars are opposed for many reasons. If you wish to claim war shows some intrinsic evil then you must also agree that the opposing side in a war shows the same intrinsic evil.
Phat writes:
And getting back to Calvinism. Tell me again why the doctrine is so evil... is it due to the idea of a God who foreknowingly creates critters destined to be damned?
That is certainly part but Calvinism is far worse than just that; it is perhaps the most vile, mean, evil, disgusting creation of Christianity.
Imagine telling a child that they are condemned at birth, worthless and can only be saved through the acts of someone else? Any parent that treated their child in that way would certainly and rightly be considered a horrid parent.
Calvinism seems to have absolutely no social redeeming characteristics.
Phat writes:
Also...concerning spending wherever needed....could our current form of government allow us to spend money to heal rather than money to police?
Of course our current form of government could use money to heal rather than harm; BUT only if the voting public demands such behavior.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 07-23-2017 3:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 98 of 283 (816839)
08-11-2017 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
08-11-2017 9:34 PM


the usual two errors are actually Faith's nonsense.
Faith writes:
1. The brutishness of life is due to the Fall, not God's original Creation.
Bullshit. The brutishness of life is due to the God in Genesis 2&3 deciding to make life brutish. There was no Fall.
Faith writes:
2. The ability to do good works depends on being saved so it's hardly selfish to focus on it.
Bullshit. Being saved has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to good works.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 08-11-2017 9:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 283 (816906)
08-13-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-13-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Why would a collection of mindless particles care about another collection of mindless particles that they have no connection with, have never met and that are using up available resources.
That is certainly not a very convincing, reasonable, rational or even honest criticism.
The reality is that a collection of mindless particles does exist that we have decided to call a mind that has the ability to register and collate data in a format that another collection of mindless particles can experience and respond to.
There is ample evidence that the individual particles really are mindless.
There is ample evidence that the collections of particles exist and function in general as described.
There is ample evidence that the various collections of particles have evolved over time generally towards greater complexity of the collection of mindless particles we identify as the brain.
There is ample evidence of various collections of mindless particles we identify as animals to similar reactions to given situations; an awareness of hunger, pain, sex, happiness, play, joy, even self as examples.
There is ample evidence that in the collection of mindless particles we identify as humans that empathy, including empathy for others has evolved from an empathy for those in our immediate family, clan, tribe, nation to extend to not just those outside our immediate family, clan, tribe or nation but even to other species of collections of mindless particles.
All those things can be supported by evidence.
God cannot.
It's fine to believe God did it but it's just silly to claim God did it or that "God did it" explains anything.
God did it is not an explanation but simply a cessation of discussion and thought; a cop out. It is a willful decision to stop learning and searching.
While we may well believe in some creative guiding being we need to understand that that is not a reasonable, rational or logical position and certainly not supported by any evidence.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 10:21 AM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 283 (816945)
08-14-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
08-14-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
God has limited options? This is a different god than is taught.
You keep saying that as though it were true. Granted many of the current crop of apologists and TV Evangelical Hucksters try to sell that God but it is not what is actually described in the Bible.
You also continue to miss the fact that the Bible often does describe a God that we should consider as evil.
But so far you have failed to show that the issues you describe really are evil.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:09 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 283 (816948)
08-14-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
08-14-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
However, the general Christian belief system, the one that's taught to children and preached about is that of an all powerful, all knowing, everywhere god - the omni-god. There's a lot of back-peddling being done on this idea around here. God it seems is a bit weedy.
So you keep asserting. But so far all you have is an unsupported assertion.
Tangle writes:
Again, the view that the Christian god can be evil is not the one taught, nor is it the generally understood version held by Christians. The Christian god is an infinitely loving and generous god - just ask GDR.
I'm not disagreeing that the god described in the bible is a totally despotic bastard - that's rather my point - but that isn't the PR message is it?
Again, you are simply showing your ignorance of what is taught, what is in the Bible and what GDR has said. Start actually reading all of what GDR has posted and quit taking pieces parts out of context to support your fantasies.
Tangle writes:
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse?
(Not to mention what happens to you if you're born into the wrong religion after you leave this vale of suffering.)
I am saying that no such system has been shown to exist. You have repeatedly asserted that is the case but never provided any evidence that it is a depiction of reality as opposed to simply your caricature of reality.
AbE:
What you are presenting is almost close to the topic since you describe something that faintly, very faintly reflects Calvinism.
But Calvinism is not Christianity but rather simply one Chapter of Club Christian with some pretty sick bylaws and mission statements.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:46 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 283 (816952)
08-14-2017 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
08-14-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
I am certainly not ignorant of what I was taught (as a Catholic), nor am I ignorant of what I hear being preached when I'm forced to attend various ceremonies hereabouts. I'm totally ignorant of what you've been taught of course - and that's a big issue, no-one believes the same things. No-one can say what Christian beliefs about god are.
You are correct, there is no such thing as "The Christianity" just as there is no such thing as "The Bible" so why do you keep asserting such things exist?
There has never been such things. Jesus was never a Christian. Christianity has never been monolithic. There have always been various flavors and interpretations of Christianity; Peter & Paul & John. All different visions and versions and product.
Tangle writes:
It's a fact that all creatures die, pain and suffering exists, disease exist, all organisms compete or die, then die. Where is the unproven assertion?
The unproven assertion is that that is evil.
Edited by jar, : fix quotebox

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 10:26 AM jar has replied

  
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