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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 106 of 283 (816915)
08-13-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-13-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Actually, God did it is by far the simplest explanation.
It's certainly a simple thing to say, but how is it an explanation?
But the discussion is not about whether goddidit, the claim is that if he did, then he's a psychopath. So far you haven't said anything to refute that other than that you hope he isn't.
Why would a collection of mindless particles care about another collection of mindless particles that they have no connection with, have never met and that are using up available resources.
There are plenty of threads explaining this, this one happily assumes that goddidit but asks why he did it in the nasty and vicious way that he has given that he's an all powerful and loving being?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 10:21 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 9:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 107 of 283 (816918)
08-13-2017 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by GDR
08-13-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
I suggest that Occam's razor insists that we are the result of design by an intelligence.
An unknown and unevidenced all-designing intelligence is just about the definition of a superfluous entity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 10:21 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 9:31 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 108 of 283 (816936)
08-13-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
08-13-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
It's certainly a simple thing to say, but how is it an explanation?
It isn't an explanation no more than it is an explanation to say that we are the result of endless mindless processes.
Tangle writes:
But the discussion is not about whether goddidit, the claim is that if he did, then he's a psychopath. So far you haven't said anything to refute that other than that you hope he isn't.
Firstly we don't know what other options there were for God. You seem to be maintaining the fundamentalist position that God being all powerful could add 2 and 2 and get blue.
I'm a Christian who believes that one can look to Jesus Christ to understand the true nature of God. In Jesus we can see a god who cares immensely about us and suffers with us in our suffering. We see in Jesus someone who was prepared to suffer a tortuous and humiliating death based on sacrificial love.
If I am correct in my belief that God will ultimately finish with a renewed creation without suffering that involves us, then we had to initially be able to freely choose good or evil. In a world where only goodness existed without the initial freedom to choose that goodness and rejecting evil it, could no longer be called good. It would just be the way things are, and calling someone good would be like one fish saying to another, "golly you're wet".
It seems to me then that in order to come to a world where love is fundamental to existence, then it requires a world something like our own.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 08-13-2017 1:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6199
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 109 of 283 (816937)
08-13-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
08-13-2017 2:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:
An unknown and unevidenced all-designing intelligence is just about the definition of a superfluous entity.
Not really. Getting from mindless particles to a single cell and then to sentient life by an endless series of processes due to an endless string of good fortune, is no simpler than the idea that those processes were the result of a pre-existing intelligence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 08-13-2017 2:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:11 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 110 of 283 (816944)
08-14-2017 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by GDR
08-13-2017 9:25 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Firstly we don't know what other options there were for God.
God has limited options? This is a different god than is taught. But ok, this lessor god finds that the only kind of world he can build is one where every organism must compete to the death with every other just to survive long enough to reproduce, then die. And all sorts of fiendish mechanisms will be created to make it even harder to simply exist, like disease, parasitism and carnivorism. This system will continue for millions of years causing literally trillions of deaths and wiping out almost every species unlucky enough to evolve from it.
This is the ultimate Hunger Games. A more immoral and evil invention is hard to imagine. You now tell me that your god isn't godly enough to create a better system but knowing this he did it anyway? That's evil.
You seem to be maintaining the fundamentalist position that God being all powerful could add 2 and 2 and get blue.
I'm afraid your god can't get out of the trap. He's either powerful enough to have built a better world but didn't - in which case he's evil - or couldn't but did it anyway - in which case he's evil.
But really, are you telling me that this world is the very best your god could do? Can you really not imagine how it might be improved - even by a sickly god like you now say yours is?
I'm a Christian who believes that one can look to Jesus Christ to understand the true nature of God. In Jesus we can see a god who cares immensely about us and suffers with us in our suffering. We see in Jesus someone who was prepared to suffer a tortuous and humiliating death based on sacrificial love.
Well I'm an atheist and when I look at the evidence all around me I can see the true nature of this god of yours. I see babies starve slowly to death in famines, and, as I type, a crow killing and eating a baby magpie.
Jesus cares but the real boss god doesn't? This is the most bizarre rationalisation ever invented for our ruinous state of existence. And the idea that god sent Jesus here to torture and kill him and that this was a good thing is weird beyond belief. Is this the best plan he could devise? But in any case it didn't work did it? Jesus was obviously just another man, his death did not end this wordly suffering that your mythology predicted.
It seems to me then that in order to come to a world where love is fundamental to existence, then it requires a world something like our own.
This is just utterly crazy. In order for H. sapiens to have love, the world must have millions of year of suffering and death and the destruction of pretty much everything. Really???? This is the very best your god can do? You've swallowed every drop of apologetics ever devised and created an evil and pathetic god in the process. An ungodly god in all ways.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 9:25 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 6:45 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 12:58 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 08-14-2017 1:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 283 (816945)
08-14-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Tangle
08-14-2017 3:37 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
God has limited options? This is a different god than is taught.
You keep saying that as though it were true. Granted many of the current crop of apologists and TV Evangelical Hucksters try to sell that God but it is not what is actually described in the Bible.
You also continue to miss the fact that the Bible often does describe a God that we should consider as evil.
But so far you have failed to show that the issues you describe really are evil.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:09 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 112 of 283 (816947)
08-14-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
08-14-2017 6:45 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
You keep saying that as though it were true. Granted many of the current crop of apologists and TV Evangelical Hucksters try to sell that God but it is not what is actually described in the Bible.
I keep coming up against this problem - the problem that every believer believes something different even within the same belief. However, the general Christian belief system, the one that's taught to children and preached about is that of an all powerful, all knowing, everywhere god - the omni-god. There's a lot of back-peddling being done on this idea around here. God it seems is a bit weedy.
You also continue to miss the fact that the Bible often does describe a God that we should consider as evil.
Again, the view that the Christian god can be evil is not the one taught, nor is it the generally understood version held by Christians. The Christian god is an infinitely loving and generous god - just ask GDR.
I'm not disagreeing that the god described in the bible is a totally despotic bastard - that's rather my point - but that isn't the PR message is it?
But so far you have failed to show that the issues you describe really are evil.
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse?
(Not to mention what happens to you if you're born into the wrong religion after you leave this vale of suffering.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 6:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:17 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2017 10:39 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 283 (816948)
08-14-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
08-14-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
However, the general Christian belief system, the one that's taught to children and preached about is that of an all powerful, all knowing, everywhere god - the omni-god. There's a lot of back-peddling being done on this idea around here. God it seems is a bit weedy.
So you keep asserting. But so far all you have is an unsupported assertion.
Tangle writes:
Again, the view that the Christian god can be evil is not the one taught, nor is it the generally understood version held by Christians. The Christian god is an infinitely loving and generous god - just ask GDR.
I'm not disagreeing that the god described in the bible is a totally despotic bastard - that's rather my point - but that isn't the PR message is it?
Again, you are simply showing your ignorance of what is taught, what is in the Bible and what GDR has said. Start actually reading all of what GDR has posted and quit taking pieces parts out of context to support your fantasies.
Tangle writes:
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse?
(Not to mention what happens to you if you're born into the wrong religion after you leave this vale of suffering.)
I am saying that no such system has been shown to exist. You have repeatedly asserted that is the case but never provided any evidence that it is a depiction of reality as opposed to simply your caricature of reality.
AbE:
What you are presenting is almost close to the topic since you describe something that faintly, very faintly reflects Calvinism.
But Calvinism is not Christianity but rather simply one Chapter of Club Christian with some pretty sick bylaws and mission statements.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:46 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 114 of 283 (816951)
08-14-2017 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
08-14-2017 9:17 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
So you keep asserting. But so far all you have is an unsupported assertion.
What exactly are you denying about it?
Again, you are simply showing your ignorance of what is taught, what is in the Bible and what GDR has said. Start actually reading all of what GDR has posted and quit taking pieces parts out of context to support your fantasies.
I am certainly not ignorant of what I was taught (as a Catholic), nor am I ignorant of what I hear being preached when I'm forced to attend various ceremonies hereabouts. I'm totally ignorant of what you've been taught of course - and that's a big issue, no-one believes the same things. No-one can say what Christian beliefs about god are.
I am saying that no such system has been shown to exist. You have repeatedly asserted that is the case but never provided any evidence that it is a depiction of reality as opposed to simply your caricature of reality.
Now you're just being disingenuous. It's a fact that all creatures die, pain and suffering exists, disease exist, all organisms compete or die, then die. Where is the unproven assertion?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 283 (816952)
08-14-2017 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
08-14-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
I am certainly not ignorant of what I was taught (as a Catholic), nor am I ignorant of what I hear being preached when I'm forced to attend various ceremonies hereabouts. I'm totally ignorant of what you've been taught of course - and that's a big issue, no-one believes the same things. No-one can say what Christian beliefs about god are.
You are correct, there is no such thing as "The Christianity" just as there is no such thing as "The Bible" so why do you keep asserting such things exist?
There has never been such things. Jesus was never a Christian. Christianity has never been monolithic. There have always been various flavors and interpretations of Christianity; Peter & Paul & John. All different visions and versions and product.
Tangle writes:
It's a fact that all creatures die, pain and suffering exists, disease exist, all organisms compete or die, then die. Where is the unproven assertion?
The unproven assertion is that that is evil.
Edited by jar, : fix quotebox

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:46 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 10:26 AM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 116 of 283 (816957)
08-14-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
08-14-2017 9:57 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Jar writes:
so why do you keep asserting such things exist?
I'm attempting to generalise and it's my view that the vast majority of Christians are taught and believe the simple message that god is all loving and all powerful. Disbelieve if you wish.
The unproven assertion is that that is evil.
How could it not be?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 9:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-14-2017 10:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 283 (816959)
08-14-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Tangle
08-14-2017 9:09 AM


Re: Why do you care?
I keep coming up against this problem - the problem that every believer believes something different even within the same belief.
Gosh, it's almost like we're people.
You're telling me that setting up a system where everything fights for its life at the expense of all other life such that every living organism suffers and ultimately dies - and this goes on for millions of years - is not evil? What could be worse?
Without competition there is no growth. Complete stasis sounds worse to me.
Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 9:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:14 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 283 (816968)
08-14-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Tangle
08-14-2017 10:26 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Tangle writes:
How could it not be?
Too funny.
It can not be evil by the same method used to call it evil; by human judgement but that does require one to think beyond simple binary choices.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Tangle, posted 08-14-2017 4:36 PM jar has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 283 (816984)
08-14-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by GDR
08-13-2017 9:31 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Getting from mindless particles to a single cell and then to sentient life by an endless series of processes due to an endless string of good fortune, is no simpler than the idea that those processes were the result of a pre-existing intelligence.
Obviously it is.
A string of known processes, no matter how earnestly you want to reject it, is simpler than adding a complex intelligence to it. A driveway is simpler than a driveway with a car in it. A bottle is simpler than a bottle with a firefly in it. A blank page is simpler than a page with a sonnet written on it.
X is simpler than X + Y. Period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by GDR, posted 08-13-2017 9:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 08-16-2017 4:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 120 of 283 (816985)
08-14-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by New Cat's Eye
08-14-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Why do you care?
New Cat's Eye writes:
Without competition there is no growth. Complete stasis sounds worse to me.
To me it sounds like how believers describe Heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2017 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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