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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 431 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
In the first half of my life I was in a lot of churches, dozens at least. All of them considered themselves Bible literalists. All of them believed the Creation story (though there may have been some old-earth creationists). I don't recall ANY of them having your idea of "the Fall". As far as I can recall, they all believed that the story in Genesis 3 had to do with man's spiritual relationship with God - i.e. there was no suggestion of "damage". As I said, it's the majority view and always has been. Maybe they actually read Genesis 3:22-23
quote:Adam and Eve didn't fall. They became more like God. They grew up and left the nest.
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Phat Member Posts: 18296 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: Yes. We are charged to do what we can to make the world better. We may well be responsible, in fact.
Or you can simply reduce some of the excessive, unnecessary evil that is on the extreme end of the scale while keeping a lot of "not so incredibly terrible" evil and make the world better. Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. I agree. Thats the best we can do. No shame there. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18296 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Adam and Eve didn't fall. They became more like God. They grew up and left the nest. And then their son Cain killed their other son. Seems the parents were ineffective at teaching responsibility and love.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 431 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So was God.
And then their son Cain killed their other son. Seems the parents were ineffective at teaching responsibility and love.
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Phat Member Posts: 18296 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Perhaps God, being a wise teacher, foreknowingly modeled bad behavior knowing that humans with a conscience would call Him out on it. Just as he expects us to do to each other. Seems Cain didnt listen.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
1 - Create a universe where matter can be created and/or destroyed. Perhaps there is.
2 - "Taking from something else" isn't even really the issue. The issue is more "taking from something else that is intelligently alive." It is an opinion that that is an/the issue, and it presumes that it is something that should be cared about.
There are an infinite number of ways to change (that is - not be stagnant) without requiring what we call "evil." Right: what we call "evil" - is it actually evil, though? What if other people call it "not-evil", who's right? Too, on that same line, there are an infinite number of ways in which our world could be way more evil than the way it is, so there's that.
Any way you look at it... if one is all-powerful, it should be rather easy to change a few things here or there to make the universe better than it is. How much of that has already happened and how much is still to come? I don't think us humans are in a position to be judging the whole world as evil or not. Well, I mean, we can... it's just pointless.
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ringo Member (Idle past 431 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So what's your point?
Perhaps God, being a wise teacher, foreknowingly modeled bad behavior knowing that humans with a conscience would call Him out on it. Just as he expects us to do to each other. Seems Cain didnt listen.
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Phat Member Posts: 18296 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So what's your point? Personally, I don't believe that God foreknowingly created evil, though I DO believe that God allowed it and the consequences rippling out from it. You and I have discussed this before. Allowing humans to choose evil is expected if we are to learn anything after leaving the nest. Eliminating all possibility of evil wont strengthen people in the long run.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Adam and Eve didn't fall. They became more like God. They grew up and left the nest. They lost their original connection with God, they could no longer hear Him as they used to, they now had to deal with a world in which thorns impeded their work of growing food which hadn't existed before, the woman had to suffer pain in childbirth which she hadn't had to before, she was also subject to the domination of her husband which hadn't been the case before, they were now subject to physical death too, which wasn't the case before their disobedience. And God subjected the entire Creation to death as well because of their sin (Romans 8:18-22), and the whole point of Jesus' coming was to save us from the eternal punishment incurred because of sin, and to eliminate sin and its effects from the world that were brought about by the Fall. If there hadn't been a Fall there wouldn't have been any need for Jesus to come, to redeem us and the whole Creation both. I don't know why you didn't get at least some inkling of all this basic theology in your church experiences. If Adam and Eve's disobedience had had the positive consequences you impute to it, one does have to wonder why there is so much turmoil and bloodshed in life now that didn't exist before their Fall. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9503 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
NCE writes: How does a thing grow without taking from something else? It's only energy that is being used. There are a myriad of ways of powering organisms that don't require them to kill and eat other organisms.
For what it's worth: I don't have much use for the omni-stuff. Yet your religion taught that principle for millenium - and still mostly does. Now you're allowed to form your own 'conclusions' ie, make stuff up. But you're shying away from the negligence argument. In our ethical - and legal - code, to cause a harm by negligence - allowing something to happen that you should have or did foresee, but did allow or caused anyway - is culpable.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18296 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But you're shying away from the negligence argument. In our ethical - and legal - code, to cause a harm by negligence - allowing something to happen that you should have or did foresee, but did allow or caused anyway - is culpable. OK...so say we were allowed to form our own legal codes and we used them to successfully try and convict God. All He is gonna say is for us to go and do likewise to each other. In other words, He will take the conviction and the sentence...and won't deprive us of our right to judge and convict.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 9503 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.6 |
Phat writes: IF God had simply designed the environment as comfortable to us, we would simply be a bunch of couch potatoes with no character. Phat, he made our world a vicious, disease ridden place were kill or be killed is a fact of life. Survivors then die. You're in a comfortable place now but our ancestors lived exactly like animals, they had no way to 'grow' - whatever that means. This entire thing is a nasty experiment - your god's playing with us like mice in a trap. This is evil by any definition.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes: It is an opinion that that is an/the issue, and it presumes that it is something that should be cared about. Yes, it is an opinion. It is my opinion that having to kill nothing in order to grow is better than having to kill another-intelligent-living-creature in order to grow. And yes, I presume to care about it. Do you care about it? If not, to what ends are you participating in this discussion?If you do care about it, and you do not agree... why not? I think my reasons for why I think it's better is rather obvious... we get no difference in the decisions we make or our perception of the reality we live in other than "no intelligent organism has to die in order for another to grow."This is because I am of the opinion that intelligence has value. If you do not agree, why not?If you simply do not agree that "intelligence has value" then I bid you good day and hope I never meet you in an alleyway Too, on that same line, there are an infinite number of ways in which our world could be way more evil than the way it is, so there's that. Agreed. But self-congratulations has ever been the adversary of progress.(And, yes, I am wearing a top hat and monocle, as well my body is that of a peanut). How much of that has already happened and how much is still to come? If such a thing were in place... then how can we say God is all-powerful?If God were all-powerful, why the need for progress? What about all the people who died 300 years ago... were they nothing more than to advance progress just a bit for us? Are we nothing more than to advance progress just a bit for those to come 500 years from now? Surely an all-powerful God can put 'the best' system in place directly without the need of working His way towards it? Of course, in the context of a not-all-powerful God... the point is extremely salient.But I don't have any issue in the context of a not-all-powerful God, either. As I understand that things are not "as good as they could be" simply because God can't make them that way. I don't think us humans are in a position to be judging the whole world as evil or not. Well, I mean, we can... it's just pointless. As pointless, and powerful as it is to consider questioning an all-powerful God for any reason.
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ringo Member (Idle past 431 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So which is it: Did He not create everything? Or was He not foreknowing?
Personally, I don't believe that God foreknowingly created evil.... Phat writes:
How is that substantially different from creating it?
... I DO believe that God allowed it and the consequences rippling out from it. Phat writes:
What can we learn from punishment after death?
Allowing humans to choose evil is expected if we are to learn anything after leaving the nest.
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Phat Member Posts: 18296 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Surely an all-powerful God can put 'the best' system in place directly without the need of working His way towards it? The question is, are we working our way towards it and is this discipline necessary? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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