Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,424 Year: 3,681/9,624 Month: 552/974 Week: 165/276 Day: 5/34 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 151 of 283 (817107)
08-15-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:04 PM


Re: Why do you care?
You're missing the entire point. If god is evil, he can't be all loving. He can't be both careless and the Christian god.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18299
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 283 (817108)
08-15-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by ringo
08-15-2017 1:11 PM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
How is that substantially different from creating it?
Because we chose it. He only allowed it to give us a choice. You seem intent on suing Him for the consequences of what we chose.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 1:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 1:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 153 of 283 (817109)
08-15-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Phat
08-15-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Phat writes:
What if death is...as Forrest Gump suggests...just another part of life?
This notion alone doesn't alter the problem. If life-after-death is just as messed up as this one, then the problem of an "all-powerful-God" allowing evil to exist still persists. If life-after-death does not include evil (or is "much better") then the question arises "why have this pre-death-life at all?"
What if getting eaten by another creature is a natural cause and that evil has nothing to do with it?
Then it isn't evil.
We can call it "the ending of an innocent life so that another life may continue on" if you want.
And then the problem remains.
Why not have it such that "life may continue on" without the ending of other innocent life?
If God is not powerful enough to alter such a thing... this explains why it must be.
If God is powerful enough... the question remains.
What if God sees a bigger picture than we as humans can fathom?
That's basically the same question.
Is this bigger picture for a good-enough reason? If so... what is that reason?
Is this bigger picture for some terrible reason? If so... what is that reason?
And, of course, what if God doesn't see a bigger picture at all and you're just making that up?
What if the results of Creation must go through certain primitive steps with an ultimate goal of making us more empathetic, resolved against evil, or even angry at God (or some force) for our ultimate benefit in our growth and awareness?
Then God isn't all-powerful enough to find another way.
This is a perfectly acceptable answer.
If God is restricted in such a way that the world cannot be better... then God is not all-powerful.
If God is not all-powerful, then clearly this is the 'best He can do.'
If God is not all-powerful, what else can He not do?
Again, the issue only arises if we are talking about a God that is all-powerful.
If God is all-powerful, how can He possibly be restricted by being forced to do it this way?
In other words what I'm trying to say is "what if God is right in that everything is meant to play out largely as it has done"?
Then it is right.
What if it isn't, though?
What if God's test is to see who has enough self-confidence to say "Hey! This shit isn't right! Things could be better!" And then those who show they can pick out right vs. wrong regardless of worldly or even seemingly-heavenly peer pressure are chosen to move onto the next world and act as God's heralds? Because, obviously, He can trust them to figure things out without His constant reassurance.
We can play the 'what if' game all night long for other topics, if you'd like.
But here, the question is "if God is all powerful, why isn't the world better?"
Your statement is interesting in itself, but has nothing to do with the current question.
After all it seems to me to be a bit of hubris that humans with limited perception and information can arrogantly judge a Creator.
Do you think it's possible to judge a Creator without arrogance?
In the sense that "this is how I judge the Creator based on the information available to me during my life and experiences, I could be wrong... but without further information this is how it looks to me."
If not, I judge your opinion to be... immature.
But then again...as jar may suggest...we are charged to do just that.
I don't think it matters if we're charged to judge God or not.
I think it's human nature to judge things. We judge things (other people, situations...) constantly.
There's nothing wrong with judging... Judging is how we make decisions. What is 'weighing options' if not "judging?"
There's only something wrong if you judge and don't remember that it's possible to be wrong.
In this way, God helps us grow through judging and opposing Him.
Do you think it's possible to judge God while at the same time not oppose God?
I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 11:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:22 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18299
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 154 of 283 (817110)
08-15-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Tangle
08-15-2017 1:13 PM


Re: Why do you care?
If God is evil, he can't be all loving. He can't be both careless and the Christian god.
I don't believe we have enough information with which to judge Him and/or declaring what He, in fact, is or is not.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 1:13 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 1:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 155 of 283 (817112)
08-15-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
08-15-2017 12:58 PM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
Faith writes:
They lost their original connection with God, they could no longer hear Him as they used to....
Obviously not true. The whole Bible is the story of people hearing God. The only change after The Apple was that they no longer believed everything He said blindly. He did, after all, lie to them. As grownups, they had to think for themselves.
Faith writes:
... they now had to deal with a world in which thorns impeded their work of growing food which hadn't existed before, the woman had to suffer pain in childbirth which she hadn't had to before, she was also subject to the domination of her husband which hadn't been the case before...
All part of growing up; Daddy doesn't change your diapers any more.
Faith writes:
... they were now subject to physical death too, which wasn't the case before their disobedience.
The Bible doesn't say any such thing.
Faith writes:
I don't know why you didn't get at least some inkling of all this basic theology in your church experiences.
Because it isn't the "basic theology" that you think it is. You should read the Bible instead of just commentaries.
Faith writes:
If Adam and Eve's disobedience had had the positive consequences you impute to it....
God said it: they became more like Him.
Faith writes:
...one does have to wonder why there is so much turmoil and bloodshed in life now that didn't exist before their Fall.
Maybe you should consider the possibility that your ideas of "the Fall" are wrong. After all, you are directly contradicting God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 12:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18299
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 156 of 283 (817114)
08-15-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Stile
08-15-2017 1:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
What if God's test is to see who has enough self-confidence to say "Hey! This shit isn't right! Things could be better!" And then those who show they can pick out right vs. wrong regardless of worldly or even seemingly-heavenly peer pressure are chosen to move onto the next world and act as God's heralds? Because, obviously, He can trust them to figure things out without His constant reassurance.
Works for me! Lets run with that....
Do you think it's possible to judge God while at the same time not oppose God?
I do.
Yes. Perhaps some think it a sin to question Him, but I believe He not only allows it but encourages it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 433 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 283 (817117)
08-15-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:14 PM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
Phat writes:
Because we chose it. He only allowed it to give us a choice. You seem intent on suing Him for the consequences of what we chose.
We've been through this before. If He plants landmines in his front yard along with a "Keep Off the Grass" sign, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for the consequences. Our legal system understands that. Why don't you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 158 of 283 (817118)
08-15-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Phat writes:
I don't believe we have enough information with which to judge Him and/or declaring what He, in fact, is or is not.
What???
I can't begin to understand this misunderstanding.
If you killed a person either knowingly or by neglect, you would be culpable.
If god kills a person either knowingly or by neglect, why is he not culpable?
God kills or allows to be killed trillions of organisms, including the entire planet at least once. He also set up this system such that everything competes for their lives by taking others. How can there possibly not be enough information for you to decide that this is in your face wrong? What could be clearer?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 159 of 283 (817119)
08-15-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:12 PM


Re: Solutions both short and long term
Phat writes:
The question is, are we working our way towards it and is this discipline necessary?
You do understand that people are different, right?
Some are stronger, some are weaker.
Some are smarter, some are not-as-smart.
Some are tall, some are short.
Some are very empathetic, some are not.
Some are very moral, some are not.
What makes you think that "one world" for all the people we see everyday, is adequate or necessary for everyone?
The issue isn't whether or not we're getting any better.
The issue is whether or not this is the best method for an 'all-powerful God' to do, well, anything.
With all the differences of people that we can all see all around us... one world isn't going to cut it for any single test to apply evenly to "all people." The notion is laughable. Laughable for an 'all-powerful God' anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 160 of 283 (817129)
08-15-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by ringo
08-15-2017 1:22 PM


Re: nope it's the mainstream view
Faith writes:
They lost their original connection with God, they could no longer hear Him as they used to....
Obviously not true. The whole Bible is the story of people hearing God.
Only selected people whom God chose as prophets, and that is in fact evidence for what I said since the vast majority did not and do not hear God as Adam and Eve did before they disobeyed.
The only change after The Apple was that they no longer believed everything He said blindly. He did, after all, lie to them. As grownups, they had to think for themselves.
He didn't lie to them, they DID die as a result of their disobedience. And everything I said about how they were now subject to suffering that hadn't existed before is true.
They went from a paradise to a world full of distress, disease and death. What a jaundiced picture of "growing up" you have.
... they were now subject to physical death too, which wasn't the case before their disobedience.
The Bible doesn't say any such thing.
'
Sure it does:
Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
ringo writes:
God said it: they became more like Him.
In respect of knowing good and evil. But otherwise it was the beginning of all the suffering in the world for man and beast.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 1:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 3:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 283 (817153)
08-15-2017 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Tangle
08-15-2017 12:59 PM


Re: Why do you care?
It's only energy that is being used. There are a myriad of ways of powering organisms that don't require them to kill and eat other organisms.
But there'd still be competition... If both of us want to grow, and there are limited resources, then we have to compete - even if we're not eating other organisms.
On the other hand, everything existing in perfect harmony with unlimited energy provided for free is not the gauge that we should be using to judge evil, in my opinion.
Yet your religion taught that principle for millenium - and still mostly does. Now you're allowed to form your own 'conclusions' ie, make stuff up.
What do you mean now? People have always accepted or rejected religious teachings and formed their own conclusions.
But you're shying away from the negligence argument. In our ethical - and legal - code, to cause a harm by negligence - allowing something to happen that you should have or did foresee, but did allow or caused anyway - is culpable.
That's cool, but "I think the world should be better than it is so therefore God is evil" is not a convincing argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 12:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Tangle, posted 08-15-2017 5:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 283 (817154)
08-15-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Stile
08-15-2017 1:07 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Yes, it is an opinion.
It is my opinion that having to kill nothing in order to grow is better than having to kill another-intelligent-living-creature in order to grow.
And yes, I presume to care about it.
Do you care about it? If not, to what ends are you participating in this discussion?
If you do care about it, and you do not agree... why not?
I think my reasons for why I think it's better is rather obvious... we get no difference in the decisions we make or our perception of the reality we live in other than "no intelligent organism has to die in order for another to grow."
This is because I am of the opinion that intelligence has value.
If you do not agree, why not?
If you simply do not agree that "intelligence has value" then I bid you good day and hope I never meet you in an alleyway
I care about human intelligence, but I cannot care less about fish intelligence. I'll bite a fishes head right off if I'm hungry enough. Fish intelligence has no value to me.
But self-congratulations has ever been the adversary of progress.
And perfection is the enemy of good.
If such a thing were in place... then how can we say God is all-powerful?
I don't think you'll find me saying that God is, actually, all-powerful. I have no use for that term.
The world is getting better - "God isn't doing it fast enough for my taste, so therefore He is evil" is not a convincing argument.
But I don't have any issue in the context of a not-all-powerful God, either. As I understand that things are not "as good as they could be" simply because God can't make them that way.
You assume that it is the way that things should be. Go right ahead, but don't think it's convincing.
As pointless, and powerful as it is to consider questioning an all-powerful God for any reason.
So yeah: pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Stile, posted 08-15-2017 1:07 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Stile, posted 08-16-2017 8:34 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18299
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 163 of 283 (817173)
08-15-2017 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
08-15-2017 1:26 PM


Attractive Nuisance
If He plants landmines in his front yard along with a "Keep Off the Grass" sign, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for the consequences. Our legal system understands that. Why don't you?
So we take our kids to the zoo. The Lions have a place to stay, and there is a high wall around their lair, as well as a sign warning people to stay off of the wall. One kid climbs up on the wall and wants to take a selfie with the lions behind him. He loses his balance and falls down into the pit. After being cornered, the lion drags him back inside the lair and eats him. Is the zoo responsible for the consequences?
What alternatives would the legal system insist that the zoo provide?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 3:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 164 of 283 (817207)
08-15-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 3:17 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
But there'd still be competition... If both of us want to grow, and there are limited resources, then we have to compete - even if we're not eating other organisms.
You can't get beyond the existing model. Why do we need to grow? Why are we not grown? Why do we need to comptete for limited resources? These are not givens if you're a god designing a world.
On the other hand, everything existing in perfect harmony with unlimited energy provided for free is not the gauge that we should be using to judge evil, in my opinion.
Why not! We judge evil based on harm to others. Your god has created the ultimate harm. Your god promises perfect harmony - but only after he's tortured us and all his creation.
What do you mean now? People have always accepted or rejected religious teachings and formed their own conclusions.
Cobblers, people have always been told what to believe on pain of death or worse. We live in liberal times in a liberal part of the world - we forget.
That's cool, but "I think the world should be better than it is so therefore God is evil" is not a convincing argument.
Well I admire your attempt to downplay multiple, planetary-wide genocide - and worse - as 'should have been better' but really, what more does a god have to do to be called evil?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 3:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2017 10:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 165 of 283 (817259)
08-16-2017 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 3:27 PM


Re: Why do you care?
New Cat's Eye writes:
I don't think you'll find me saying that God is, actually, all-powerful. I have no use for that term.
The world is getting better - "God isn't doing it fast enough for my taste, so therefore He is evil" is not a convincing argument.
I don't think we have a difference of opinion.
I don't find such an argument valid either.
You assume that it is the way that things should be. Go right ahead, but don't think it's convincing.
All moral arguments stem from personal definitions (opinions) on what is right/wrong/good/evil.
None of them are ever any more convincing beyond "because I think so."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024