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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: I agree with you when you say that "chemical processes are not random, evolution is not random, planetary orbits are not random". There is a coherence to them. My point is whether or not the natural chemical processes, the evolutionary forces and planetary orbits are the result of intelligence or not. If not than again it boils down to intelligence or random chance. I know what your point is, I'm trying to get across the science that tells us it's not random. Just saying that it's all random chance, doesn't make it so. Especially when ALL of the evidence points to natural causes and NONE points to the supernatural. You have a belief, don't try to make it a science.
So Hawking believes that self generation was inevitable. I like you don't understand that either, but assuming he is right then the question remains; was the inevitability there due to chance or intelligence? I'll never understand the physics that leads to that conclusion - or even the lay man's explanations - but I trust the process that derives it. I trust it because of its track history of providing correct answers. And of it's track record of correcting its errors. Hawking's ideas are too early in the day to say that they're correct, but it IS the working hypothesis. If it wasn't, and the hypothesis was goddidit, we're wasting an awful lot of time, money and human effort trying to solve these problems.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I suggest you get on with it then. Thanks for the suggestion. When I see something worth defending against I'll consider it.
The point of these fori, is to question and critique beliefs held by believers. I thought it was understanding through discussion... apparently you'd rather dictate than understand.
You've said that twice now and it's puzzled me - I have never said that religion is something that is done to people and I have no idea what it even means. Well, for example, your approach is that Christianity says X so since I'm a Christian then I must believe X.
I'm afraid that's something you've just made up. Ahem:
quote: I see it the other way: Christians have come to believe X so therefore Christianity says X.
And why on earth would I think that people don't participate in religion? You act as though we are droids having beliefs dictated to us rather than being people who think about this stuff and come to conclusions. You didn't ask me what I believe about my God, you just told me that my God is all-powerful and basically a tortuous murderer - presumably because you think that's what my religion teaches.
Seems to me you have a personal problem here. Yeah, it's you being a jerk.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
NCE writes: You didn't ask me what I believe about my God, you just told me that my God is all-powerful and basically a tortuous murderer - presumably because you think that's what my religion teaches. This is a core problem, I'm talking about Christianity generally, you're talking about your personal god, which, I believe, is the Christian god. The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all poweful, all knowing, all present, all powerful. But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited. Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle, replying to NCE writes: I will admit that the Problem Of Evil is the number one argument brought up by inquiring minds. Peter Kreeft explains his philosophy quite well at my link, by the way. The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all powerful, all knowing, all present, all powerful. But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lesser god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited. Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why isn't the Fall sufficient explanation?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: I will admit that the Problem Of Evil is the number one argument brought up by inquiring minds. And it can't be answered so it's rationalised and/or ignored. But I'm asking a little bit more than the suffering thing which pre-dates science, I'm asking why make life competitive? Why make it billions of years of death and destruction yet make life short and vicious? Is this the very best this loving god could do? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
God didn't do any of that; that's all the consequences of the Fall.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: God didn't do any of that; that's all the consequences of the Fall. Oh Faith.....that's just fairy story stuff.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's the orthodox view of Christianity based on the Bible. How do you justify preferring your own wrongheaded idea of what Christianity teaches to what mainstream Christianity says it teaches? We don't teach the God you describe, that's your own invention; we teach that the Fall is responsible for the circumstances you impute to God based on nothing but your own imagination.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: It's the orthodox view of Christianity based on the Bible. Yes I know, and it's a view that other modern Christians deny. I'm just a simple atheist who looks at the lot of you - you believe in the same god and the same bible but have these preposterous disagreements, and I'm just baffled by the absurdity of it. (And this is just one religion....)
How do you justify preferring your own wrongheaded idea of what Christianity teaches to what mainstream Christianity says it teaches? My own idea? I'm just playing back what I was taught and what others here say.
We don't teach the God you describe, that's your own invention; we teach that the Fall is responsible for the circumstances you impute to God based on nothing but your own imagination. When you say 'We', you mean your sect. Other 'Wes' teach something different. GDR's god is not the same as your god - yet you both say they are the god of this Jesus guy. Still others have their own personal gods - like NCE and NoNukes - that are apparently still Christian gods but are the lessor versions with more human scale powers. Its a puzzle isn't it? Who am I to believe represents the 'real' one?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Christians have disagreements but I don't know any who believe in the God you keep describing.
My "we" refers to Bible believers. GDR denies parts of the Bible, so he's not part of my "we." He doesn't believe in the God you are describing either; he wrongly thinks that describes the God of the Bible so he refuses to believe that part of the Bible. "We" don't believe the God of the Bible is the God you are describing, or the "God" GDR refuses to accept. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Tangle writes: When you say 'We', you mean your sect. Other 'Wes' teach something different. GDR's god is not the same as your god - yet you both say they are the god of this Jesus guy. Still others have their own personal gods - like NCE and NoNukes - that are apparently still Christian gods but are the lessor versions with more human scale powers. Its a puzzle isn't it? Who am I to believe represents the 'real' one? Obviously you should pick me. The thing is Tangle, mankind has long struggled with trying to determine the nature of their god or gods and how that should impact their lives. In most cases it has been about how to get their god/gods to do what they want them to do. My problem with much of Christianity is that in recent years it has been about how to get God to put them in a good spot after they die. Actually when you read the Gospel accounts of Jesus life it is primarily about being a kingdom people and serving God's creation, which includes not only other humans but all of creation. Faith believes in an inerrant Bible which paints a very confused picture of God when which has Him commanding genocide on one hand and telling us to love our enemy on the other. Faith somehow manages to accept both positions. My view is that we understand all of scripture through the lens of what we have about Jesus, based on the faith that Jesus perfectly embodies the nature of God. Theology is not like science. Theologians cannot work out mathematical formulas or conduct experiments to prove their views. We simply live our lives imperfectly based on what we believe about the nature of God and what that should mean to our lives.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Faith writes: Because the audience here at EvC thinks that the Fall is a fairy tale. You won't convince them...even with CAPITAL LETTERS. Why isn't the Fall sufficient explanation?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
This is a core problem, I'm talking about Christianity generally, you're talking about your personal god, which, I believe, is the Christian god. Right, but that is your problem not mine:
quote: It turns out that being "within a belief" doesn't mean that you are tied to specific particulars. Religious people actually come to their own conclusions and end up finding themselves within the same beliefs - they're not dictated to them.
The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all poweful, all knowing, all present, all powerful. Yes, and I'm a Christian who is saying that they don't have any use for those terms.
But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited. See? You can't help but dictate my beliefs to me. I don't agree to any of that.
Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I'm not responding to your questions. I'm trying to help you with your problem.
I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that. Well that makes you an idiot, and it's your loss not mine. So anyways, to continue to help you with your problem: since I've found God there hasn't been a place or time where I've reached out to Him and He wasn't there. In that sense, I get how other people say that he is "everywhere" and "always" - that is consistent with my experience. But the logical ramification of "omni-presence" isn't something that I find either useful or valuable - other than to spend time making frivolous arguments on the internet for fun Me identifying as a Christian doesn't mean that you're allowed to hold me to specific particulars of the group. I mean, you can... but you can fuck off too (no offense) I am willing to share my beliefs, but you won't get to dictate them to me.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith believes in an inerrant Bible which paints a very confused picture of God when which has Him commanding genocide on one hand and telling us to love our enemy on the other. Faith somehow manages to accept both positions. Genocide is murder. So many people these days don't know the difference between justice and criminality, so they go out and protest the death penalty though it is justice against murder. What God commanded is justice -- earned judgment. That's why I have no problem reconciling two supposed pictures of God -- God is severely just and He's merciful and loving.
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