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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 158 of 283 (817118)
08-15-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:15 PM


Re: Why do you care?
Phat writes:
I don't believe we have enough information with which to judge Him and/or declaring what He, in fact, is or is not.
What???
I can't begin to understand this misunderstanding.
If you killed a person either knowingly or by neglect, you would be culpable.
If god kills a person either knowingly or by neglect, why is he not culpable?
God kills or allows to be killed trillions of organisms, including the entire planet at least once. He also set up this system such that everything competes for their lives by taking others. How can there possibly not be enough information for you to decide that this is in your face wrong? What could be clearer?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 164 of 283 (817207)
08-15-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 3:17 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
But there'd still be competition... If both of us want to grow, and there are limited resources, then we have to compete - even if we're not eating other organisms.
You can't get beyond the existing model. Why do we need to grow? Why are we not grown? Why do we need to comptete for limited resources? These are not givens if you're a god designing a world.
On the other hand, everything existing in perfect harmony with unlimited energy provided for free is not the gauge that we should be using to judge evil, in my opinion.
Why not! We judge evil based on harm to others. Your god has created the ultimate harm. Your god promises perfect harmony - but only after he's tortured us and all his creation.
What do you mean now? People have always accepted or rejected religious teachings and formed their own conclusions.
Cobblers, people have always been told what to believe on pain of death or worse. We live in liberal times in a liberal part of the world - we forget.
That's cool, but "I think the world should be better than it is so therefore God is evil" is not a convincing argument.
Well I admire your attempt to downplay multiple, planetary-wide genocide - and worse - as 'should have been better' but really, what more does a god have to do to be called evil?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 3:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2017 10:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 167 of 283 (817314)
08-16-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by New Cat's Eye
08-16-2017 10:08 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
I didn't say we need to. And you don't know the givens.
God has 'givens'?
Define "others". I don't judge my evil based on the countless number of organism I inadvertantly kill as I'm walking around all day.
What's inadvertant about deliberately killing every animal and plant on a planet? Including people.
You don't get to tell me about my God.
Just watch me.
That question is too loaded to answer.
It sure is, it's the same question I've been asking for a few dozen posts. It's so loaded you can't even get close to answering it. It's the question believers can't answer - why is there suffering if this is a loving god?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-16-2017 10:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 10:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 175 of 283 (817334)
08-16-2017 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by GDR
08-16-2017 4:42 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
Occam's razor points to our existence being the result of intelligence and not blind chance.
Nope. Inserting the supernatural into a natural regime is just a cop out with no explanatory value, and it's the worst form of unnecessary hyptheises imaginable.
quote:
His [Occam's] principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.
You added a superfluous supernatural being.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by GDR, posted 08-16-2017 4:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by GDR, posted 08-16-2017 5:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 182 of 283 (817376)
08-17-2017 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by GDR
08-16-2017 5:39 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
I'm not inserting anything that you aren't. We simply come to our own conclusions. Is the world
You've inserted the supernatural into the natural world - how much bigger do you need an unnecessary hypothesis to be?
Until you can demonstarte the existence of anything supernatural, the working hypothesis is that the universe is naturally occurring.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by GDR, posted 08-16-2017 5:39 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 1:34 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 184 of 283 (817395)
08-17-2017 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 10:56 AM


Re: Why do you care?
Scaredy Cat......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 10:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 187 of 283 (817423)
08-17-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 11:06 AM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
Jerk
Really? You can't defend your god's behaviour?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:06 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 189 of 283 (817435)
08-17-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:57 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
I'm pretty sure I can,
I suggest you get on with it then.
but you don't get to tell me what my God does.
It's true that I made the assumption that your god was the Christain god, but I didn't imagine that you owned him personally. The point of these fori, is to question and critique beliefs held by believers.
You just can't get over seeing religion as something that is done to people rather than something that people participate in - which explains why you think you can dictate my beliefs to me. It turns out you're wrong.
You've said that twice now and it's puzzled me - I have never said that religion is something that is done to people and I have no idea what it even means. I'm afraid that's something you've just made up. And why on earth would I think that people don't participate in religion? Seems to me you have a personal problem here.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 4:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 192 of 283 (817446)
08-17-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by GDR
08-17-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
So we can see the world naturally occurring but that isn't the point. Is that by a mindless cause or an intelligent cause? You can insert the one you choose to believe.
You can believe whatever cause you like, but if we're talking about the principle of Occam's razor, your goddidit is an unnecessary hypothesis. Given that everything else we've ever seen or investigated is naturally occurring, the null hypothesis is natural causes.
(This is without even considering the infinite regression involved with a 'causal' god.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 1:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 2:02 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 193 of 283 (817448)
08-17-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
08-17-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
But you are arguing that. You are saying that the natural processes that have resulted in the world as we know it are simply driven by a virtually an infinite number of cases of random chance,
I know it's important to you to keep saying 'random chance' but really, you're smart enough to not do this. Chemical processes are not random, evolution is not random, planetary orbits are not random. If you follow physics, you'll see that there are mathematicians like Hawkings that believe that the universe's self generation was inevitable. This is not something I understand, but it's current thinking which does not require a godly intervention.
Believe what you like but don't try to justify it with bad science.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 1:45 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 2:12 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 196 of 283 (817456)
08-17-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by GDR
08-17-2017 2:12 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:
I agree with you when you say that "chemical processes are not random, evolution is not random, planetary orbits are not random". There is a coherence to them. My point is whether or not the natural chemical processes, the evolutionary forces and planetary orbits are the result of intelligence or not. If not than again it boils down to intelligence or random chance.
I know what your point is, I'm trying to get across the science that tells us it's not random. Just saying that it's all random chance, doesn't make it so. Especially when ALL of the evidence points to natural causes and NONE points to the supernatural.
You have a belief, don't try to make it a science.
So Hawking believes that self generation was inevitable. I like you don't understand that either, but assuming he is right then the question remains; was the inevitability there due to chance or intelligence?
I'll never understand the physics that leads to that conclusion - or even the lay man's explanations - but I trust the process that derives it. I trust it because of its track history of providing correct answers. And of it's track record of correcting its errors. Hawking's ideas are too early in the day to say that they're correct, but it IS the working hypothesis. If it wasn't, and the hypothesis was goddidit, we're wasting an awful lot of time, money and human effort trying to solve these problems.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 2:12 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 198 of 283 (817469)
08-17-2017 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 4:56 PM


Re: Why do you care?
NCE writes:
You didn't ask me what I believe about my God, you just told me that my God is all-powerful and basically a tortuous murderer - presumably because you think that's what my religion teaches.
This is a core problem, I'm talking about Christianity generally, you're talking about your personal god, which, I believe, is the Christian god.
The traditional idea of the Christian god - as it has been taught for generations - is the omni-god; all seeing, all poweful, all knowing, all present, all powerful.
But ok, your personal version of this Christian god is a lessor god; his power is bounded, his vision clouded, his options limited.
Well so be it, all my questions still stand and you're avoiding them. I have to conclude it's because you can't answer them and all this smoke and pretend hurt is simply because of that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 4:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 08-17-2017 5:56 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 209 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:15 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 201 of 283 (817495)
08-17-2017 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
08-17-2017 5:56 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Phat writes:
I will admit that the Problem Of Evil is the number one argument brought up by inquiring minds.
And it can't be answered so it's rationalised and/or ignored.
But I'm asking a little bit more than the suffering thing which pre-dates science, I'm asking why make life competitive? Why make it billions of years of death and destruction yet make life short and vicious? Is this the very best this loving god could do?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 08-17-2017 5:56 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 203 of 283 (817497)
08-17-2017 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:24 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:
God didn't do any of that; that's all the consequences of the Fall.
Oh Faith.....that's just fairy story stuff.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 205 of 283 (817499)
08-17-2017 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:36 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Faith writes:
It's the orthodox view of Christianity based on the Bible.
Yes I know, and it's a view that other modern Christians deny. I'm just a simple atheist who looks at the lot of you - you believe in the same god and the same bible but have these preposterous disagreements, and I'm just baffled by the absurdity of it. (And this is just one religion....)
How do you justify preferring your own wrongheaded idea of what Christianity teaches to what mainstream Christianity says it teaches?
My own idea? I'm just playing back what I was taught and what others here say.
We don't teach the God you describe, that's your own invention; we teach that the Fall is responsible for the circumstances you impute to God based on nothing but your own imagination.
When you say 'We', you mean your sect. Other 'Wes' teach something different. GDR's god is not the same as your god - yet you both say they are the god of this Jesus guy.
Still others have their own personal gods - like NCE and NoNukes - that are apparently still Christian gods but are the lessor versions with more human scale powers.
Its a puzzle isn't it? Who am I to believe represents the 'real' one?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:57 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 207 by GDR, posted 08-17-2017 9:09 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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