Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 496 of 908 (817504)
08-17-2017 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Taq
08-17-2017 10:51 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
If you write a book as you wrote, it would be entertainment and also it would be something written. Much different than if it was not written and if there were 0 books existing. Your point that if you write a book with written material that is false based on interpreration is moot. Further whether or not a interpretation is popular doesnt make it true, even if we agree on the point.
The theory of evolution is accepted and it is being corrected. The name has changed a few times.
History of evolutionary thought - Wikipedia
Edited by DOCJ, : Err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Taq, posted 08-17-2017 10:51 AM Taq has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 497 of 908 (817505)
08-17-2017 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Taq
08-17-2017 10:48 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
Source.
Drift is silented unused genes.
Mutated cells are destroyed.
I never posted that DNA is not responsible for differences between species. It is responsible for differences between species, or even a population such as with trisomy 21, etc.
Edited by DOCJ, : Err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Taq, posted 08-17-2017 10:48 AM Taq has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 498 of 908 (817507)
08-17-2017 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Tanypteryx
08-17-2017 9:16 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Big bang, big crunch, multiverse, string theory, electrical universe theory, evolution, darwinian evolution, theory of evolution, general relativity, quantum theory, abiogenesis, etc.. There are hundreds of theories and in many cases anchoring is popular.
Umm... ok... 🙄 It's unhealthy to change your mind frequently = i.e. not unhealthy persay/can be unhealthy. You didn't catch that point? Sorry, I will do my best to be clear.
Again... 😃
If you study you learn. And what you learn is equal to a belief. The knowledge gained from studying is ultimately a belief. Nothing is absolute.
Science is a method of studying the things it can be used to study. That is it. Yes you can study nature with Science. 😁 And yes, Science, overtime, if the theory is comprehensive may be the ultimate truth of nature to human beings. Hope you understood that last part. 🤔
Hawking accepts evolution. 🙄

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-17-2017 9:16 AM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-18-2017 3:40 PM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 499 of 908 (817508)
08-17-2017 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Coyote
08-16-2017 9:23 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I don't disagree with your first point regarding Science. I do think it is important to point out, people using Science have been wrong many times and in many cases death has been the result. So while Science is finding corrections it is also making errors that cause death in worse case scenarios.
Regarding religon, you test them to find out which one is correct.
1 example, gen 1 has the sequence of creation in the exact same order as our science of today. That is amazing. 🤔
Edited by DOCJ, : Err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Coyote, posted 08-16-2017 9:23 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Coyote, posted 08-17-2017 11:42 PM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 500 of 908 (817510)
08-17-2017 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by PaulK
08-16-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I will trust the translation of strongs lexicon. 😉
I would ask God not people about scripture. I'm merely posting my point of view
. 😁
I'm not sure what other option you have, either everything came into existence from nothing existing at all (even within the multiverse model this is true) or some being that has always existed created everything. I suppose you could be a idealist but you do not seem to communicate like one. 🤔

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by PaulK, posted 08-16-2017 12:43 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 12:22 AM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 501 of 908 (817511)
08-17-2017 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Taq
08-16-2017 1:20 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I would look at that definition, and read it to be referencing a population, not the common descent argument. 😉

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Taq, posted 08-16-2017 1:20 PM Taq has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 502 of 908 (817514)
08-17-2017 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
08-09-2017 1:50 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
I dont believe there is gene loss. The genes are just silent if not dominate. DNA is quite remarkable. Another reason I don't believe in common descent. If it were animal x could arguably give birth to anything contained in its DNA. To argue loss, would mean you need evidence. Cells inside the ovaries, or testicles, have lysosomes. And when reproducing, if there is a mutation the body detects it and the cell with the mutation destroys itself with its own lydosomes from inside due to stimulation from outside the cell.
Edited by DOCJ, : Add

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Faith, posted 08-09-2017 1:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM DOCJ has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 503 of 908 (817517)
08-17-2017 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 502 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 10:57 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
It's not gene loss, it's allele loss and it has to happen when other alleles are selected and especially when they become fixed or homozygous. To get a Great Dane requires losing genetic material for Chihuahuas, Poodles, Golden Retrievers and so on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 10:57 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 7:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 550 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:43 AM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 504 of 908 (817519)
08-17-2017 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Regarding religon, you test them to find out which one is correct.
Religions are notorious for not subjecting their beliefs to tests against evidence. Typically, when there is a disagreement over interpretation of scripture or belief, you will get a schism--that's why there are so many different religions and denominations/sects within religions.
It is common to have, for example, young earth believers state that the evidence doesn't matter--if it contradicts the young earth belief the evidence is wrong somehow.
So, thanks, but I'll stick to science and you can have religion and any of those other fuzzy subjects.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:21 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:55 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 535 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 7:06 PM Coyote has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 505 of 908 (817522)
08-17-2017 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Coyote
08-17-2017 11:42 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Religions are notorious for not subjecting their beliefs to tests against evidence. Typically, when there is a disagreement over interpretation of scripture or belief, you will get a schism--that's why there are so many different religions and denominations/sects within religions.
Well also: there are "pastors" who need jobs...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Coyote, posted 08-17-2017 11:42 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 7:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 506 of 908 (817524)
08-18-2017 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 481 by Taq
08-17-2017 1:33 PM


Re: Breeding possibilities
Mutations may slow it down but the development of a new species REQUIRES the loss of alleles for other traits.
It also requires the emergence of new traits through mutations.
Not at all, there's plenty of genetic diversity available from which to select for a new species without adding even one mutation. New traits emerge because of changed gene frequencies, not mutations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by Taq, posted 08-17-2017 1:33 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by Taq, posted 08-18-2017 11:13 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 507 of 908 (817525)
08-18-2017 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 9:58 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
I will trust the translation of strongs lexicon
I'm pretty sure that's not the standard Strongs. But then placing men over scripture is at the heart of your religion.
quote:
I would ask God not people about scripture. I'm merely posting my point of view
Well maybe you would like to take more care to get your facts right.
quote:
I'm not sure what other option you have, either everything came into existence from nothing existing at all (even within the multiverse model this is true) or some being that has always existed created everything. I suppose you could be a idealist but you do not seem to communicate like one.
I have two. The first is that our universe is all of space-time. In that case there is no need for our universe to come from nothing because there was never a time when it did not exist. The second is that our universe is embedded in a larger space-time and is the consequence of a natural event.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:58 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 5:47 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 508 of 908 (817527)
08-18-2017 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by Faith
08-17-2017 6:08 PM


Re: Breeding possibilities
quote:
Evolution EVENTUALLY will run out of genetic diversity because selection reduces genetic diversity.
We know this is untrue because mutations will keep adding diversity. Even if diversity was completely lost a new mutation would bring in more diversity.
This is completely obvious, has been explained to you repeatedly and simply denying it is hardly sensible.
quote:
You keep misunderstanding what I'm saying but you can't make your misunderstanding the meaning of what I'm saying
I don't think so. Showing that mutations have added variety without destroying species as you have claimed it would (another obvious absurdity) does not show a misunderstanding at all. It directly address an assertion that you made.
quote:
The principle I'm talking aobut holds up in all cases.
Obviously it only holds up in a case where mutation stops. And the only known example of that is extinction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:03 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 509 of 908 (817528)
08-18-2017 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by PaulK
08-18-2017 12:39 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
Adding diversity does not contribute to the formation of a species. That takes selection. Selection reduces genetic diversity. When you are getting a new species you are losing genetic diversity. Adding genetic diversity does not contribute to the formation of a species. The formation of a species is what evolution does. Adding diversity does not contribute to the formation of a species. The formation of a species requires selection, selection reduces genetic diversity. Adding genetic diversity does not contribute to the formation of a species which is what evolution does. Getting a few mutations does not contribute to evolution. Evolution requires the loss of genetic diversity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 12:39 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 1:16 AM Faith has replied
 Message 523 by Taq, posted 08-18-2017 11:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 510 of 908 (817530)
08-18-2017 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by Faith
08-18-2017 1:03 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
quote:
Adding diversity does not contribute to the formation of a species. That takes selection
You're not getting it. Adding variety means that there is variety for selection to work on.
quote:
Adding genetic diversity does not contribute to the formation of a species.
Of course it can contribute. If the population has run out of diversity that is where the differing traits in a successor species will come from.
quote:
Evolution requires the loss of genetic diversity.
Evolution requires both the loss and gain of genetic diversity. Not an overall sustained loss. That is why it will never end, short of the extinction of all life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 1:38 AM PaulK has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024