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Author | Topic: The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Are you saying that if the minimum wage went up to $14.00 and the government (somehow) mandated $24.75 for your job, your union wouldn't ask for $28.00? No, obviously not. I'm not in favor of the government mandating anything..(except perhaps a minimum wage) because if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour, we would again have an exploited working class to a greater degree than we now have and you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get. The republican (like petrophysics) would argue that individual initiative should be the road to success, but I've seen corporate bosses turn on each other and eliminate jobs from among their own. Its a cutthroat culture of survival. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Minimum wages in Canada aren't much above $10 an hour - and those are Canadian dollars; in US dollars it would be more like $8.
... if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour... Phat writes:
That's the problem. You fight so hard for higher wages but you don't care about the people on minimum wage. Your only concern is that you don't become one of them. But if the minimum wage was higher, your employer would be less able to keep your wages down.
...you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Have I said otherwise? I got the implication.
The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class. By how much? 1/4th? 1/100th?
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
What's your question? How much more down-trodden is the working class? Or how much of the down-treading is done by the middle class? By how much? 1/4th? 1/100th? Neither is easy to quantify but both are easy to see. High mortgage payments are less down-trodden than high rents - at least you can get your equity back. And the middle class want low prices for groceries, restaurant meals, etc. which requires low wages for the workers.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I was wondering how much of the down-treading you thought was caused by the middle class.
And the middle class want low prices for groceries, restaurant meals, etc. which requires low wages for the workers. If the work isn't worth it then you shouldn't expect people to pay for it - that's not trodding someone down, that's just business.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
"Worth it" how? Why is handling your food "worth" less than a middle-class job? If the work isn't worth it then you shouldn't expect people to pay for it... Whatever a middle-class job is. Phat is a cashier at Safeway and he's worried about being put on the same level as a cashier at the non-union supermarket down the street. How is he "worth" more?
New Cat's Eye writes:
Where's the distinction?
... that's not trodding someone down, that's just business.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
"Worth it" how? Why is handling your food "worth" less than a middle-class job? If it is going to cost me $10 to pay someone to bring a plate of food from that side of the restaurant to this one, then I'll just go over there and grab it myself. That isn't worth $10 to me. If that isn't an option, then I won't go to your restaurant... and then nobody is getting paid.
How is he "worth" more? I dunno, I self-checkout and bag my own groceries.
Where's the distinction? There's nothing wrong with doing business.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
And yet restaurants still exist. Somebody is paying. If it is going to cost me $10 to pay someone to bring a plate of food from that side of the restaurant to this one, then I'll just go over there and grab it myself. That isn't worth $10 to me. If that isn't an option, then I won't go to your restaurant... and then nobody is getting paid. So the question remains: Why is one server worth more than another? And don't say "experience"; there are waitresses with twenty years' experience still making minimum wage.
New Cat's Eye writes:
I asked you what the distinction is between doing business and treading somebody down.
There's nothing wrong with doing business.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
And yet restaurants still exist. They don't charge $10 to carry a plate across the room yet...
So the question remains: Why is one server worth more than another? I don't know why you're asking me that... Some servers are better than others in how they treat customers and fulfill their duties - as a patron that is where the value is provided. Not all servers are the same quality. The last two bars I went to were night and day in how the bartender treated me and did their job. The good one made a lot more money off me than the bad one.
I asked you what the distinction is between doing business and treading somebody down. Just treading people down is wrong but doing business isn't. That I gave the exceptional bartender a huge tip and the bad bartender a normal one is not me making the bad one downtrodden - they just suck at their job and are experiencing the consequences.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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New Cat's Eye writes:
But they're not paid according to their quality. As I said, a server with twenty years' experience is still paid minimum wage - and she's likely to make less in tips than the sexy blonde who was hired yesterday too.
Some servers are better than others in how they treat customers and fulfill their duties - as a patron that is where the value is provided. Not all servers are the same quality. New Cat's Eye writes:
Just treading people down is wrong but doing business isn't.quote: quote:
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But they're not paid according to their quality More quality = more tip = more pay.
As I said, a server with twenty years' experience is still paid minimum wage - Not necessarily if you're counting tips - and if so that's their fault.
- and she's likely to make less in tips than the sexy blonde who was hired yesterday too. And the guy in the fancy place is making even more. So what? Maybe serving isn't a job that you can rely on as being a sustainable career...
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
As I already pointed out, that isn't necessarily true - unless you count sexy blondeness as "quality". More quality = more tip = more pay. And not every minimum wage worker gets tips.
New Cat's Eye writes:
It would be nice if everybody had their choice of the perfect career, tailor-made for them. If that fantasy was true, everybody would be middle class and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Maybe serving isn't a job that you can rely on as being a sustainable career... But that isn't reality. In the real world, some people have to take care of children, elderly parents, disabled relatives, etc. so they can't have a leisurely education period in which they can prepare for the perfect life. They have to take whatever work they can get.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
that isn't necessarily true It doesn't have to be necessarily true
unless you count sexy blondeness as "quality". It certainly helps
And not every minimum wage worker gets tips. So?
They have to take whatever work they can get. Ok... What's your point? I'm afraid you've lost me.
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ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate. What's your point? I'm afraid you've lost me. My point is that your point is wrong.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo,to NCE writes: I might only add fairly but not preferentially. Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate.My point is that your point is wrong. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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