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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 299 of 423 (816869)
08-12-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
08-11-2017 3:53 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
What I'm complaining about is that you could care less about a middle class similar to how my parents were but would rather pay everyone below middle class enough to get off government assistance---not realizing that they still wont be able to leave anything to their heirs.
That's true. I couldn't care less if anybody can leave anything to their heirs. I'd rather leave their heirs a world in which they can make their own way.
Phat writes:
What kind of American Dream is that???
A sustainable one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 08-11-2017 3:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-13-2017 11:34 PM ringo has replied
 Message 392 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 10:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 303 of 423 (816986)
08-14-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by New Cat's Eye
08-13-2017 11:34 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
And if their own way is the ability to leave something to their heirs?
They're welcome to it. I'm saying that they shouldn't expect the economic system to prop up their ability to do so. They are not being "down-trodden" just because they can't do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-13-2017 11:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 3:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 304 of 423 (816987)
08-14-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
08-14-2017 3:19 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
...but if you help the absolute bottom first, the middle will suffer and collapse back down into the working class.
Again, boo-hoo.
Phat writes:
I didn't work hard all my life to simply earn minimum wage forever.
A lot of people did. What makes you special?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 3:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 12:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 306 of 423 (816993)
08-14-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
08-14-2017 12:51 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
If all wages were cut so that everyone who was not an owner had to work for minimum wage, I would see that as patently unfair.
Who said anything about cutting wages? I'm in favour of raising wages - but starting at the bottom.
Phat writes:
When an employee is just in or out of high school, they don't need the same amount of money as a parent or potential retiree needs.
That's a lie that capitalists use to keep wages low. Since when are people paid on the basis of what they need? As you said yourself, you (should) be paid more as you gain experience and become more valuable to your employer. But that isn't the case for minimum-wage earners. They're paid as little as the employer can get away with, regardless of their experience and value.
Phat writes:
Every citizen should have the opportunity to earn more than when they were first hired. If you remove that incentive, what have you got left?
An underpaid working class, like we have now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 08-14-2017 12:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:08 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 308 of 423 (817120)
08-15-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Phat
08-15-2017 1:08 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
Knowing full well that leveling everyone out won't work...
We don't know that. But I didn't suggest it either.
Phat writes:
...why deprive the middle class of their efforts?
Where did I say anything about depriving anybody of anything?
Phat writes:
You seem to be favoring the working class. One could argue that this is just as bad as favoring the upper class (as Republicans do) or favoring the middle class (as I do)
The difference is that the working class are the ones who need the help most.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 08-15-2017 1:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 312 of 423 (817312)
08-16-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by New Cat's Eye
08-15-2017 3:29 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
I think it is fair to expect the economic system to allow them to do so.
Have I said otherwise?
New Cat's Eye writes:
They'd be "down-trodden" in the same way as anybody who is prevented from making their own way.
The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-15-2017 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:18 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 313 of 423 (817313)
08-16-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by xongsmith
08-15-2017 7:02 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
xongsmith writes:
no, raise the middle class wages in proportion. If you are getting $18 an hour and the minimum goes from $7.25 up to $14.00, your $18 becomes $34.76. Or maybe give the 18 the same increase, up to $24.75.
Who has the authority to do that? The government can set a minimum wage, just like it can set a maximum speed on the highway, but it can't set every wage. And you can be damn sure that Phat's union would be first to oppose your plan. They want the power to negotiate more, if possible.
xongsmith writes:
Don't pitch the lower class against the middle class.
I'm not the one who's doing that. You and Phat are.
If the working class is buoyed up, the middle class will rise automatically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by xongsmith, posted 08-15-2017 7:02 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 08-16-2017 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 315 of 423 (817324)
08-16-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
08-16-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
You can't really expect the middle class to be altruistic communists who sacrifice their own goals in order to allow all of their poor oppressed comrades to climb the ladder of equality to their level, can you?
You should try reading what I write. Where have I ever suggested that the middle class should sacrifice anything?
Phat writes:
I'm not sure if I agree.
Are you saying that if the minimum wage went up to $14.00 and the government (somehow) mandated $24.75 for your job, your union wouldn't ask for $28.00?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 08-16-2017 3:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 08-16-2017 4:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 317 of 423 (817329)
08-16-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Phat
08-16-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Phat writes:
... if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour...
Minimum wages in Canada aren't much above $10 an hour - and those are Canadian dollars; in US dollars it would be more like $8.
Phat writes:
...you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get.
That's the problem. You fight so hard for higher wages but you don't care about the people on minimum wage. Your only concern is that you don't become one of them. But if the minimum wage was higher, your employer would be less able to keep your wages down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 08-16-2017 4:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 319 of 423 (817408)
08-17-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:18 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
By how much? 1/4th? 1/100th?
What's your question? How much more down-trodden is the working class? Or how much of the down-treading is done by the middle class?
Neither is easy to quantify but both are easy to see. High mortgage payments are less down-trodden than high rents - at least you can get your equity back. And the middle class want low prices for groceries, restaurant meals, etc. which requires low wages for the workers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:18 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 321 of 423 (817414)
08-17-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
If the work isn't worth it then you shouldn't expect people to pay for it...
"Worth it" how? Why is handling your food "worth" less than a middle-class job?
Whatever a middle-class job is. Phat is a cashier at Safeway and he's worried about being put on the same level as a cashier at the non-union supermarket down the street. How is he "worth" more?
New Cat's Eye writes:
... that's not trodding someone down, that's just business.
Where's the distinction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 323 of 423 (817417)
08-17-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:23 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
If it is going to cost me $10 to pay someone to bring a plate of food from that side of the restaurant to this one, then I'll just go over there and grab it myself. That isn't worth $10 to me.
If that isn't an option, then I won't go to your restaurant... and then nobody is getting paid.
And yet restaurants still exist. Somebody is paying.
So the question remains: Why is one server worth more than another? And don't say "experience"; there are waitresses with twenty years' experience still making minimum wage.
New Cat's Eye writes:
There's nothing wrong with doing business.
I asked you what the distinction is between doing business and treading somebody down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:53 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 325 of 423 (817437)
08-17-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
Some servers are better than others in how they treat customers and fulfill their duties - as a patron that is where the value is provided. Not all servers are the same quality.
But they're not paid according to their quality. As I said, a server with twenty years' experience is still paid minimum wage - and she's likely to make less in tips than the sexy blonde who was hired yesterday too.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Just treading people down is wrong but doing business isn't.
quote:
Ebenezer Scrooge: But it was only that you were an honest man of business!
Jacob Marley: BUSINESS? Mankind was my business! Their common welfare was my business!
quote:
Ebenezer Scrooge: What is your business here?
Spirit of Christmas Past: Your welfare.
Ebenezer Scrooge: My welfare?
Spirit of Christmas Past: Your reclamation, then. Take heed, rise, and walk with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 12:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 327 of 423 (817578)
08-18-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 11:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
More quality = more tip = more pay.
As I already pointed out, that isn't necessarily true - unless you count sexy blondeness as "quality".
And not every minimum wage worker gets tips.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Maybe serving isn't a job that you can rely on as being a sustainable career...
It would be nice if everybody had their choice of the perfect career, tailor-made for them. If that fantasy was true, everybody would be middle class and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
But that isn't reality. In the real world, some people have to take care of children, elderly parents, disabled relatives, etc. so they can't have a leisurely education period in which they can prepare for the perfect life. They have to take whatever work they can get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 11:59 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 329 of 423 (817586)
08-18-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by New Cat's Eye
08-18-2017 11:59 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
New Cat's Eye writes:
What's your point?
I'm afraid you've lost me.
Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate.
My point is that your point is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Phat, posted 08-18-2017 12:19 PM ringo has replied
 Message 334 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-18-2017 2:43 PM ringo has replied

  
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