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Author | Topic: The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's true. I couldn't care less if anybody can leave anything to their heirs. I'd rather leave their heirs a world in which they can make their own way.
What I'm complaining about is that you could care less about a middle class similar to how my parents were but would rather pay everyone below middle class enough to get off government assistance---not realizing that they still wont be able to leave anything to their heirs. Phat writes:
A sustainable one.
What kind of American Dream is that???
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
They're welcome to it. I'm saying that they shouldn't expect the economic system to prop up their ability to do so. They are not being "down-trodden" just because they can't do it.
And if their own way is the ability to leave something to their heirs?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Again, boo-hoo.
...but if you help the absolute bottom first, the middle will suffer and collapse back down into the working class. Phat writes:
A lot of people did. What makes you special?
I didn't work hard all my life to simply earn minimum wage forever.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who said anything about cutting wages? I'm in favour of raising wages - but starting at the bottom.
If all wages were cut so that everyone who was not an owner had to work for minimum wage, I would see that as patently unfair. Phat writes:
That's a lie that capitalists use to keep wages low. Since when are people paid on the basis of what they need? As you said yourself, you (should) be paid more as you gain experience and become more valuable to your employer. But that isn't the case for minimum-wage earners. They're paid as little as the employer can get away with, regardless of their experience and value.
When an employee is just in or out of high school, they don't need the same amount of money as a parent or potential retiree needs. Phat writes:
An underpaid working class, like we have now.
Every citizen should have the opportunity to earn more than when they were first hired. If you remove that incentive, what have you got left?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
We don't know that. But I didn't suggest it either.
Knowing full well that leveling everyone out won't work... Phat writes:
Where did I say anything about depriving anybody of anything?
...why deprive the middle class of their efforts? Phat writes:
The difference is that the working class are the ones who need the help most.
You seem to be favoring the working class. One could argue that this is just as bad as favoring the upper class (as Republicans do) or favoring the middle class (as I do)
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Have I said otherwise?
I think it is fair to expect the economic system to allow them to do so. New Cat's Eye writes:
The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class.
They'd be "down-trodden" in the same way as anybody who is prevented from making their own way.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
Who has the authority to do that? The government can set a minimum wage, just like it can set a maximum speed on the highway, but it can't set every wage. And you can be damn sure that Phat's union would be first to oppose your plan. They want the power to negotiate more, if possible.
no, raise the middle class wages in proportion. If you are getting $18 an hour and the minimum goes from $7.25 up to $14.00, your $18 becomes $34.76. Or maybe give the 18 the same increase, up to $24.75. xongsmith writes:
I'm not the one who's doing that. You and Phat are. Don't pitch the lower class against the middle class. If the working class is buoyed up, the middle class will rise automatically.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You should try reading what I write. Where have I ever suggested that the middle class should sacrifice anything?
You can't really expect the middle class to be altruistic communists who sacrifice their own goals in order to allow all of their poor oppressed comrades to climb the ladder of equality to their level, can you? Phat writes:
Are you saying that if the minimum wage went up to $14.00 and the government (somehow) mandated $24.75 for your job, your union wouldn't ask for $28.00?
I'm not sure if I agree.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Minimum wages in Canada aren't much above $10 an hour - and those are Canadian dollars; in US dollars it would be more like $8.
... if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour... Phat writes:
That's the problem. You fight so hard for higher wages but you don't care about the people on minimum wage. Your only concern is that you don't become one of them. But if the minimum wage was higher, your employer would be less able to keep your wages down.
...you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
What's your question? How much more down-trodden is the working class? Or how much of the down-treading is done by the middle class? By how much? 1/4th? 1/100th? Neither is easy to quantify but both are easy to see. High mortgage payments are less down-trodden than high rents - at least you can get your equity back. And the middle class want low prices for groceries, restaurant meals, etc. which requires low wages for the workers.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
"Worth it" how? Why is handling your food "worth" less than a middle-class job? If the work isn't worth it then you shouldn't expect people to pay for it... Whatever a middle-class job is. Phat is a cashier at Safeway and he's worried about being put on the same level as a cashier at the non-union supermarket down the street. How is he "worth" more?
New Cat's Eye writes:
Where's the distinction?
... that's not trodding someone down, that's just business.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
And yet restaurants still exist. Somebody is paying. If it is going to cost me $10 to pay someone to bring a plate of food from that side of the restaurant to this one, then I'll just go over there and grab it myself. That isn't worth $10 to me. If that isn't an option, then I won't go to your restaurant... and then nobody is getting paid. So the question remains: Why is one server worth more than another? And don't say "experience"; there are waitresses with twenty years' experience still making minimum wage.
New Cat's Eye writes:
I asked you what the distinction is between doing business and treading somebody down.
There's nothing wrong with doing business.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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New Cat's Eye writes:
But they're not paid according to their quality. As I said, a server with twenty years' experience is still paid minimum wage - and she's likely to make less in tips than the sexy blonde who was hired yesterday too.
Some servers are better than others in how they treat customers and fulfill their duties - as a patron that is where the value is provided. Not all servers are the same quality. New Cat's Eye writes:
Just treading people down is wrong but doing business isn't.quote: quote:
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
As I already pointed out, that isn't necessarily true - unless you count sexy blondeness as "quality". More quality = more tip = more pay. And not every minimum wage worker gets tips.
New Cat's Eye writes:
It would be nice if everybody had their choice of the perfect career, tailor-made for them. If that fantasy was true, everybody would be middle class and we wouldn't be having this discussion. Maybe serving isn't a job that you can rely on as being a sustainable career... But that isn't reality. In the real world, some people have to take care of children, elderly parents, disabled relatives, etc. so they can't have a leisurely education period in which they can prepare for the perfect life. They have to take whatever work they can get.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate. What's your point? I'm afraid you've lost me. My point is that your point is wrong.
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