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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
So all Christians agree with you and a Christian is defined as somebody who agrees with you. Perfectly circular.
Christians have disagreements but I don't know any who believe in the God you keep describing.My "we" refers to Bible believers.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes: You're the one providing all this nonsense, not me. I'm not making claims about my God, you are. New Cat's Eye writes:
If all you say is you don't know, it's hard for any of us to tell what you think of your god.
I don't know.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If all you say is you don't know, it's hard for any of us to tell what you think of your god. I can live with that. I'm not posting in this thread to tell you what I think of my God.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
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ringo writes:
There seems to be an implicit, unstated assumption behind this (and most) discussions of "the problem of evil": that God's highest priority is to reduce our human suffering. Thus if God does NOT reduce human suffering, He is either evil or impotent. Poor helpless god. But what if God's highest priority is something else? Something on a longer and grander scale, like vanquishing ALL evil at the end of time? What if His priority for us, now, is not to reduce suffering, but to effect personal growth? Perhaps suffering is needed for our personal growth, just as we know that physical pain is a helpful warning to protect us from physical harm?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Kbert.. writes:
There seems to be an implicit, unstated assumption behind this (and most) discussions of "the problem of evil": that God's highest priority is to reduce our human suffering. Thus if God does NOT reduce human suffering, He is either evil or impotent. Yeh, by and large, I'd reckon that a god that cares for me, shouldn't torture and kill me for some unstated long term goal.
But what if God's highest priority is something else? Something on a longer and grander scale, like vanquishing ALL evil at the end of time? What if he likes beer and mussels? He's still toturing and killing his creation. This is not the god that cares for us. It's not the god of Jesus. Inventing excuses for his psychopathy doesn't get you away from the suffering today and the conflict with the biblical message.
What if His priority for us, now, is not to reduce suffering, but to effect personal growth? Perhaps suffering is needed for our personal growth, just as we know that physical pain is a helpful warning to protect us from physical harm? What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?
Perhaps He foreknows that we all would become lazy and less driven. Health and day-to-day wellness of mind, body and spirit are like water in America; everyone expects it to always be available, like an unlimited well. A muscle never becomes stronger unless it breaks down first. Perhaps neither does a culture.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Perhaps He foreknows that we all would become lazy and less driven. Then perhaps he's a bit dumb? He designs something that doesn't work. He sells it anyway and wonders why he gets complaints about it being broken.
Health and day-to-day wellness of mind, body and spirit are like water in America; everyone expects it to always be available, like an unlimited well. Yeh, but this is god we're talking about, he's supposed to be better than us. Look your consistently missing the point - why isn't your god better? IS THIS THE BEST HE COULD DO? [Off emphasis]Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: How do you know that. You just observe what happened but you haven't established whether or not it is by design.ringo writes:
That's exactly the problem with your argument: We don't know. Speculating about something we don't know is adding a superfluous proposition, which is directly opposite to Occam. The point is that something has to be added. Either the processes are mindless or the result of intelligence. If it is intelligence then only one addition is required. If the cause for the existence of the processes is mindless then you need the addition of a vast number of causes for the transition even between basic particles and the first atom, let alone sentient moral life.
ringo writes: Of course there is. The cause may be mindless blind chance but that is still a cause.
No. I'm arguing that we don't know whether or not there is an "ultimate cause of it all". ringo writes:
That is hardly the point. By the way if you really want magic then just look at quantum mechanics. So a house that's held together by nails is a more complex explanation than a house that's held together by magic? Because there are hundreds of nails and only one magician? Come on. Surely you can see how stupid that argument is.The complexity is the magician. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: You were replying to Faith with this post but you showed it as quoting me. If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith writes: Since it isn't the God Christians believe in you are not describing the world God created If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did? You are quoting me but attributed it to GDR, as he has pointed out in the post immediately above. Remember that the topic is suffering, and I was responding to your accusation of God for creating all the suffering in the world. Of course God created the physical world, but not in its current deteriorated condition. We're used to the physical world and find much beauty in it but considering what the Fall did to it, followed by the destructive effect of the Flood, I for one have to suppose that its original beauty and order far surpassed even the best in this world. And suffering was not a part of the original Creation. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You seem to view God as a personal genii who exists only to serve you. Fortunately, that's not what the true God is like!
What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Of course God created the physical world, but not in its current deteriorated condition. We're used to the physical world and find much beauty in it but considering what the Fall did to it, followed by the destructive effect of the Flood, I for one have to suppose that its original beauty and order far surpassed even the best in this world. And suffering was not a part of the original Creation. How could two hippies bring an end to a god's creation? It must have been a really awful piece of work to get broken so quickly and easily and continue to be broken ever after. And how come your god didn't forsee this and either not do it or do it in a different way?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And how come your god didn't foresee this and either not do it or do it in a different way? He did. Jesus was in the beginning. Jesus was literally plan A, even before Lucifer fell from heaven and became a talking snake. God had a plan for redemption even before redemption was necessary. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
kbe... writes: You seem to view God as a personal genii who exists only to serve you. Fortunately, that's not what the true God is like! As an atheist I know that the genie doesn't exist, I'm merely playing back what Christians say about him. I'm fully aware of what the god who created this nasty little experiment would be like - that's the point of the discussion - he'd be a psychopath. The only way he can be excused of this evil is apparently if there's a greater plan than we are currently aware of. Well that doesn't generally work for those that attempt it here on earth, we tend to prosecute them for genocide.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Double post
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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