Calvinism and Arminianism remix

I'm describing the world that your god has created, it's not a matter of belief it's a simple fact. If a person had created this experiment, you too would call him evil. Yes, I know. Billions of other Christians aren't 'true' Christians like you either.Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

So your god isn't omni anything but not limited either. You're not making much sense.But whatever, you're still evading the point. Did he or did he not create this world with all it's suffering and death? And why is that not a problem for us to believe him being loving and even godly? He's apparently fully capable of creating ultimate paradise and ultimate hell, why inflict this temporal purgatory on us?Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

That's correct, this isn't about what I believe, it's about why - in your words - "The world is brutal and seemingly unfair and callous" if the god made it is supposed to be loving and care about us. Is this really the best your forlorn little god could do?

I give up. But the next time you see him, why not ask.

If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did?

Yeh, by and large, I'd reckon that a god that cares for me, shouldn't torture and kill me for some unstated long term goal. What if he likes beer and mussels? He's still toturing and killing his creation. This is not the god that cares for us. It's not the god of Jesus. Inventing excuses for his psychopathy doesn't get you away from the suffering today and the conflict with the biblical message. What if, being god and all, he just stopped suffering right now?

Then perhaps he's a bit dumb? He designs something that doesn't work. He sells it anyway and wonders why he gets complaints about it being broken. Yeh, but this is god we're talking about, he's supposed to be better than us.Look your consistently missing the point - why isn't your god better?IS THIS THE BEST HE COULD DO? [Off emphasis]

How could two hippies bring an end to a god's creation? It must have been a really awful piece of work to get broken so quickly and easily and continue to be broken ever after. And how come your god didn't forsee this and either not do it or do it in a different way?

As an atheist I know that the genie doesn't exist, I'm merely playing back what Christians say about him. I'm fully aware of what the god who created this nasty little experiment would be like - that's the point of the discussion - he'd be a psychopath.The only way he can be excused of this evil is apparently if there's a greater plan than we are currently aware of. Well that doesn't generally work for those that attempt it here on earth, we tend to prosecute them for genocide.

Double postEdited by Tangle, : No reason given.

I can't believe a grown-up could write that and keep a straight face. Read it out loud - does it still seem reasonable? To me it sound like a bad children's bedtime story. Which I suppose it is.But fantasy aside, you're telling me that god foresaw the pain, suffering and death that he would inflict on the world, but did it anyway? Millions of years of death and destruction, trillions of lives but did it anyway? Then he's evil.And this is the best he could do?

Nothing to say really except that all this is just pure irrational apologetics. Yet he did it anyway. He's a psychopath That's the best excuse you can think of? There's an undiclosed masterplan that requires everything to suffer and die ("light afflictions" ffs) sometime, somewhere in the future. This is just nonsense.

I'm not being hypothetical. Life is very, very real. A child starving to death is real. Why did he do this? You're not even attempting to answer beyond making up imaginary futures that even our own morality would discount as an evil. How do you square this with your all powerful loving god? Have you ever thought to ask why create anything at all? Why does a god need to create feeble short lived creatures to torture? What is his motive? At best I see it as a play thing, something to pass the time then discard when bored. What need has a god for us? And I'll say it again, is this the best he can do?

Of course it isn't, my personal world is fine, for the moment. I'm talking about existence generally. When I'm suffering from arthritis and dementia I'll probably feel rather differently. And you haven't yet been able to explain why. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying the fact that there is good in the world is irrelevant, the question is why there is evil and suffering. You really believe that we have to have disease, pain, suffering, competition for life and ultimately death in order to have some good things? That's not rational. How can it point to anything other than what we see and know? You're dreaming. Ultimate oblivion in a few billion years isn't something to concern ourselves about. The Christian idea of an after-life is just wishful thinking, no more, no less. The naturalistic world is the only one we've got so we're all trying to make the best of it.

But Christians believe that god created a paradise where humans were only good and apparently vegetarian. This was his intended creation, not the one we see today. Evil apparently came from outside - also a creation of the Christian god. God it appears, didn't share your view that good can't exist without evil, but he's not godly enough to prevent it. We're back to the puny god again. The above also applies to disease and disaster - they weren't necessary in Eden. But also what has entropy got to do with disease? Did god really have to create - or allow to be created - polio, anthrax, AIDS, ebola? It makes no sense within a belief system of a loving god. Ditto above. But also before we understood how the natural world uses competition to create species, Christians believed that they were put here intact. Species were created and were immutable, competition for life was not a necessary force to drive evolution it was a deliberate act of malicious creation, yet they still believed as you do. They just created equally irrational apologetics for it.As with each of these, the question stands - is this the best a god can do? The Christian god that created Adam and Eve did not believe in, or need, the wolf. He wanted heaven on earth. Apparently he failed and his creation has stayed broken for several billion years and can't be fixed. It's a failed experiment. Not much of a god.