Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 362 of 1482 (817807)
08-20-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 1:33 PM


Re: Giving This Topic Another Opportunity
DOCJ writes:
It actually does not link the ages from father to son. It reads how long some lived.
It doesn't say that. You're making it up.
DOCJ writes:
And days are different for God. It could be 24h and it may not be. You don't know.
It was written for humans so there's no reason to think it meant anything but what humans think it means.
If all you can do is make up stuff to cover up the errors, that's not very satisfying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:33 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 3:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 363 of 1482 (817808)
08-20-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 3:34 PM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
When I read the text and look at the concordance it looks probable. When I look at nature, and the fossil record of humanity, history, etc it is probable.
I don't use the word "probable" unless it's an actual mathematical probability that can be calculated. Can you show what the mathematical value of the "probability" is? Or are you just stating your own preference?
DOCJ writes:
You will find the definition is as noted below father can mean to bring forth x fathered y can mean brought forth a person many ages later.
As I said, you need to show that it does mean that, not just that it hypothetically "could" mean that. Otherwise, you're just bending the word's meaning to fit your preconceived interpretation.
We need to be honest here and decide what the text actually says and only then can we decide whether or not there are errors in it. We can't decide a priori that there are no errors and then look for flimsy excuses to mean something else.
Edited by ringo, : Inserted missing word "you".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 3:34 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 8:05 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 364 of 1482 (817809)
08-20-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 1:52 PM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
And the text tells you God created the heaven i.e. space, and then focused on the earth in next part.
It says he created the heavens and the earth. There's no "then". There's certainly nothing to suggest billions of years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:52 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 6:58 PM ringo has replied
 Message 367 by kbertsche, posted 08-20-2017 9:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 374 of 1482 (817885)
08-21-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by DOCJ
08-20-2017 3:48 PM


Re: Giving This Topic Another Opportunity
DOCJ writes:
Ref Gen 1:1 to see that the heavens and the earth just came into existence. They were created prior to what happened in Gen 1:2.
That isn't what it says. There is no "prior to" time frame mentioned between verse 1 and verse 2.
DOCJ writes:
I am not making anything up, it is a body, or rather a revolution of people that this thought is ultimately culminating into this tiny forum.
I agree that it's a revolution of Biblical revisionism that came up with your interpretation. It wasn't Bible scholars who discovered that the earth was billions of years old. Bible revisionists have been struggling to shoehorn the Bible into reality ever since science was invented.
DOCJ writes:
I will admit though I wish I was the individual responsible for this interpretation permitting billions or hundreds of thousands as noted, because it is leaving the possibility within scripture.
So which is it? Are you looking for possibilities within scripture or are you looking for the truth?
DOCJ writes:
Thus many generations are actually left out. You find this in the new testament when listing how Jesus was linked to Abraham. Matthew 1:1.
Huh? Are you disputing the length of time from Abraham to Jesus? Are you inserting untold generations in there? Remember that Abraham was from Ur and we can date Ur independently of the Bible.
The biggest problem in Biblical dating of the earth is that the gap before humans is way too small. You can't insert generations there.
DOCJ writes:
What different people see or interpret at different periods in history may or may not be that truth.
Indeed. That includes your interpretation. That's why we need to look at what it actually says instead of trying to rewrite it to conform to the science of the day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 3:48 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 5:02 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 375 of 1482 (817887)
08-21-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by DOCJ
08-20-2017 6:58 PM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
However scripture does allow for a old earth.
Scripture allows for a lot of things both true and false. You can't decide that scripture is accurate just because it maybe could possibly be warped to fit reality.
You have to look at what it actually says. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 6:58 PM DOCJ has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 376 of 1482 (817890)
08-21-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by kbertsche
08-20-2017 9:27 PM


Re: days and dates
kbertsche writes:
Yes, there IS a "then", at the beginning of verse 3, after the circumstantial clause which is verse 2.
DOCJ and I haven't gotten to verse 3 yet. He said in Message 355 that, "Genesis 1:1 is where the universe was created. It does represent billions of years." That's what I was referring to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by kbertsche, posted 08-20-2017 9:27 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 377 of 1482 (817892)
08-21-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 8:05 AM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
The genealogy in both cases are not used to calculate the age of the earth. So if you use it for calculating the age of the earth I would expect it to be incorrect.
That doesn't help you. Most of the age of the earth occurred before there were any humans and the Bible doesn't suggest that at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 8:05 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 9:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 385 of 1482 (817990)
08-22-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 9:17 PM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
The Bible does suggest the heaven and the earth were created before anything in the earth was created. And it happened before the 6 days of creation.
Does it really suggest that or do you just wish it did? If you were reading Genesis 1 with no preconceived notions, would you conclude that there were billions of years?
DOCJ writes:
Gen 1:2 is a new sentence beginning from on the earth. Genesis 1:1 is looking down at the heavens and the earth.
Well of course Genesis 1:1 is looking down on the earth; there was nowhere to stand on earth yet. How can you stretch a different viewpoint to billions of years?
DOCJ writes:
2, the expansion is evidence of an outside region for it expand into it.
No, the Big Bang didn't expand "into" anything. It was an expansion OF everything.
DOCJ writes:
If the bible were wrong I wouldn't expect congruency between the evidence and scripture.
That's like saying that Ian Fleming mentioned Paris and Paris exists so the James Bond stories must be true. Even if there are some congruencies, it's the incongruencies that determine whether or not the Bible is reliable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 9:17 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 4:33 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 386 of 1482 (817992)
08-22-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by kbertsche
08-21-2017 6:13 PM


Re: days and dates
kbertsche writes:
Since it was covered with water, it was not dry.
So God created the dryness.
Really, this nitpicking about whether anything was "created" is pretty silly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by kbertsche, posted 08-21-2017 6:13 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by kbertsche, posted 08-22-2017 1:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 389 of 1482 (817997)
08-22-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by kbertsche
08-22-2017 1:13 PM


Re: days and dates
kbertsche writes:
You might consider it "nitpicking", but I would call it "being careful".
You can be too careful, to the point of being catatonic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by kbertsche, posted 08-22-2017 1:13 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 418 of 1482 (827496)
01-26-2018 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by creation
01-22-2018 9:50 AM


Re: Creation
creation writes:
It is elementary that if the bible is true....
The Bible is not true. We know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:50 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:02 PM ringo has replied
 Message 431 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 11:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 419 of 1482 (827497)
01-26-2018 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by DOCJ
01-21-2018 4:33 AM


Re: days and dates
DOCJ writes:
IF you read the passage in order, the (1)heavens (space) and the (2)earth (material) were created by God and then God created everything in the earth that we know and understand.
There is no distinction between "space" and "material" in Genesis 1. Did the Hebrews even have a concept of "space"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 4:33 AM DOCJ has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 432 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 11:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 420 of 1482 (827498)
01-26-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by DOCJ
01-21-2018 5:02 AM


Re: Giving This Topic Another Opportunity
DOCJ writes:
The author didn't have to be aware of the Science in order to author the correct sequence of events.
Sure, it's possible for an author of fiction to make up something that coincidentally agrees with reality.
DOCJ writes:
What you don't seem to be understanding is that, and I'm being objective in this context, if the author was picked by God to author the passage then God would know what was going to be written and that is all that is required for it to be the truth.
There's nothing objective about the concept of "God", so your point is moot.
DOCJ writes:
If God knew what would be authored, that is all that is required for it to be the truth....
What if God knew that He was dictating fiction?
DOCJ writes:
I presume according to you, that we should JUST listen to your side because you know what God is thinking, eh?
On the contrary, I'm saying that we should just read the text as it is written. You're the one who's trying to shoehorn "truth" into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by DOCJ, posted 01-21-2018 5:02 AM DOCJ has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 426 of 1482 (827660)
01-29-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by creation
01-27-2018 2:02 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:
ringo writes:
The Bible is not true. We know that.
No we don't.
We do, even if you don't. We (humans) know how to split an atom even if you (personally) do not.
We don't have to go beyond page 1 of the Bible to find mistakes. You might be able to jump through enough hoops to convince yourself that it's still "true" but you'll find it hard to drag everybody else through the hoops with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:02 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 434 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 12:49 AM ringo has replied
 Message 940 by creation, posted 10-04-2018 3:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 427 of 1482 (827661)
01-29-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 422 by creation
01-27-2018 2:04 PM


Re: days and dates
creation writes:
ringo writes:
Did the Hebrews even have a concept of "space"?
Well Genesis does say the stars were put in something.
It says they were in the "firmament". Note the root word "firm". The Hebrews thought of it as a solid dome over the earth. It has nothing to do with what we call "space".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 2:04 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 12:28 AM ringo has replied
 Message 939 by creation, posted 10-04-2018 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024