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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: You cannot know anything about God without the Bible. You certainly cannot know anything about God if you pick the Bible apart. That hardly answers any of the severe problems there are with your way of understanding the scriptures. You couldn't even attempt an answer. Yes i believe that God reaches out to us through the scriptures, although not just the scriptures. I suggest that with your way of understanding them you completely distorts what God has to say. It isn't that difficult really if you start with a resurrected Jesus and recognize Him as the embodied word/wisdom of God. Then you can understand the Bible through that lens. Also to understand much of what Jesus is saying you need the OT as Jesus is constantly referencing it in the Gospels. That is hardly picking the Bible apart. Edited by GDR, : typo. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
GDR writes: How do you know that. You just observe what happened but you haven't established whether or not it is by design.ringo writes:
That's exactly the problem with your argument: We don't know. Speculating about something we don't know is adding a superfluous proposition, which is directly opposite to Occam. The point is that something has to be added. Either the processes are mindless or the result of intelligence. If it is intelligence then only one addition is required. If the cause for the existence of the processes is mindless then you need the addition of a vast number of causes for the transition even between basic particles and the first atom, let alone sentient moral life.
ringo writes: Of course there is. The cause may be mindless blind chance but that is still a cause.
No. I'm arguing that we don't know whether or not there is an "ultimate cause of it all". ringo writes:
That is hardly the point. By the way if you really want magic then just look at quantum mechanics. So a house that's held together by nails is a more complex explanation than a house that's held together by magic? Because there are hundreds of nails and only one magician? Come on. Surely you can see how stupid that argument is.The complexity is the magician. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: You were replying to Faith with this post but you showed it as quoting me. If god didn't create the things I see when I look out of my window, then who or what did?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: As an atheist I know that the genie doesn't exist, I'm merely playing back what Christians say about him. I'm fully aware of what the god who created this nasty little experiment would be like - that's the point of the discussion - he'd be a psychopath. I'm quite sure that your personal world is not nearly as dark and bleak as the world that you portray on this forum. Yes evil exists and and some of it horrifying. You are ignoring however the tremendous amount of good in the world. Sure species have become extinct but other species have evolved and taken their place. A life is a life. We have the Hitlers Pol Pots and Stalins of this world but we also have the untold millions who sacrifice their time, their resources and even their lives to make this world a better place for others. Once again if we don't have the choice of evil then we can't choose the things that you see in my signature. The fact that we still exist with the freedom that we have in our cultures shows that in the bigger picture goodness is winning. I'd also point out that the parts of the world that have a judeo christian heritage are more free than the countries that don't in the majority of cases. So I'd suggest that all of that points to the idea that the world does have narrative that is pointing to something beyond what we observe now. From the atheistic POV this world is ultimately headed to oblivion whereas the Christian POV says that overall life does have an ultimate purpose. So of course this begs the question of which view is nastier; a naturalistic world ultimately destined for oblivion, or the Christian world ultimately destined for a new world energized by sacrificial love?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes: Not correct. Something had to occur to cause any one of the countless processes that are required to start. It could be anything like some star going super nova or any other cause.
You contradict yourself. If the processes are mindless, nothing needs to be added. ringo writes: So a house that's held together by nails is a more complex explanation than a house that's held together by magic? Because there are hundreds of nails and only one magician? Come on. Surely you can see how stupid that argument is.The complexity is the magician. GDR writes: That is hardly the point. By the way if you really want magic then just look at quantum mechanics.ringo writes: Again, show your work. Don't just say, "Nuh uh." That's pretty simple. We understand completely how a house is held together by nails, which is obviously the result of intelligence. No one is able to explain the naturalist causes for the processes required to bring our world into existence. Frankly it seems to me more rational to conclude, as with the house, that there is a unified intelligence involved than to conclude that their was virtually an infinite number of cases of mindless random chance as a cause for our world.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes:
Well actually I have. You don't accept the answer but carry on asking the question anyway. And you haven't yet been able to explain why. For suffering that is the result of human evil then I believe it is necessary in order that we have the choice between god and evil. Without that choice, or the memory of that choice, goodness could not exist. As far as things like cancer or tsunamis are concerned I see it occuring due to the fact that we live in a world where time only flows in one direction and as a result the world is subject to entropy. As far as carnivorous life is concerned it seems to me that it is a necessary way of culling the world of the weaker members of the animal world as in "the survival of the fittest". I agree that is the most difficult part to answer but as I worship the God of love whose nature I see embodied by Jesus then I have to go on faith that it is necessary. Again of course, I believe that ultimately the wolf will lay down with the lamb and it won't be a part of the new creation.
Tangle writes:
Well wishful thinking or not I have come to the belief that this world isn't all that there is. Science speculates about other dimensions and universes that we don't perceive. Consciousness changes the reality of our world. Science tells us that we only perceive 4.5% of our perceived universe. I am not disputing the science but it is turning out to be far stranger than the Christian story. Ultimate oblivion in a few billion years isn't something to concern ourselves about. The Christian idea of an after-life is just wishful thinking, no more, no less.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: But Christians believe that god created a paradise where humans were only good and apparently vegetarian. This was his intended creation, not the one we see today. Evil apparently came from outside - also a creation of the Christian god. God it appears, didn't share your view that good can't exist without evil, but he's not godly enough to prevent it. We're back to the puny god again. As an atheist you are pretty clear about what Christians believe. As NN says you sound like Faith. You are arguing against the fundamentalist view of Scripture. The majority of Christians probably don't even think about that, let alone believe it. We know that mankind has the knowledge of good and evil and is able to make and act on moral choices. It seems that any intelligence that can bring about the existence that we know today, even if imperfect is anything but puny.
Tangle writes: The above also applies to disease and disaster - they weren't necessary in Eden. But also what has entropy got to do with disease? Did god really have to create - or allow to be created - polio, anthrax, AIDS, ebola? It makes no sense within a belief system of a loving god. In our entropic world the body is going to break down and be subject to disease.
tangle writes: Once again you argue against the fundamentalist view which the majority of Christians, (and certainly in your country), don't hold.
Ditto above. But also before we understood how the natural world uses competition to create species, Christians believed that they were put here intact. Species were created and were immutable, competition for life was not a necessary force to drive evolution it was a deliberate act of malicious creation, yet they still believed as you do. They just created equally irrational apologetics for it. Tangle writes: The Christian god that created Adam and Eve did not believe in, or need, the wolf. He wanted heaven on earth. Apparently he failed and his creation has stayed broken for several billion years and can't be fixed. It's a failed experiment. Not much of a god. Jesus taught us to pray "thy kingdom come on earth as in heaven". God, through Jesus, acknowledges that things aren't the way they should be, but as we can see in the teachings that we have of Jesus, we are called to enact in the present what will be fully realized in the future. One thing that is obvious to any theist is that God made us co-creators in the process. We are also in the view of I think pretty much any Christian, that we are given responsibility to be stewards of this planet and the life on it. So where there is suffering for whatever reason, we are called to do whatever we can to relieve it. Sometimes we do a good job of it and often we fail miserably but that is what we are called to. AS an aside, I think that a very good argument can be made for a Christian to be a vegetarian. I'm not, but I have a feeling that I probably should be.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes: We're not talking about your personal opinion of what's "more rational". We're talking about which explanation is simpler a la Occam. The explanation that doesn't rest on a giant question mark is obviously simpler. We are just going around in circles. We aren't going to come to a conclusion so I will accept that we are just going to disagree. I'll try and state my point as simply as possible. Yes multiple natural processes exist. The question is why do they exist. Are they simply the result of more natural mindless processes or is there a point or points where a pre-existing intelligence was involved. The issue can't be proven and it boils down to a matter of belief. It is my view that the more reasonable conclusion is that intelligence was involved and you believe the opposite.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: However, I have pointed out many times here that it's almost impossible to discuss issues like this in a general manner because each one of you here believes different things about it. Essentially you each make up your own versions. I doubt you'd find two Christians anywhere who have thought and read to any extent on the issues would agree on everything. The message is simple, it is all about love, love your neighbour, and even your enemy, but it is the theology that is open to interpretation. It is about understanding the nature of God and how it is to apply to our lives. So, yes in a sense we do worship the god we choose. I choose to worship God as embodied by Jesus. As far as Christianity is concerned I also believe that the Gospel writers got it right, that Jesus was bodily resurrected, that there is an ultimate plan for this creation, and that it won't end in oblivion but as part of a recreated world. You may call that wishful thinking but after considerable study I contend that it makes sense of my life and the world in a way that nothing else does.
Tangle writes: It's true that I do refer to scripture because that is the origin of your belief - I'm not going to apologise for that. I know Adam and Eve is total fantasy, but that's what's written and taught. I accept too that most liberal Christians have abandoned those bits of the bible that are now known to be either too violent to depict the sort of god that is currently fashionable, or too childish for a grown-up to believe or just disproved by modern knowledge, but that leaves you with no anchor, simply making it up. But I do absolutely have an anchor. I start with the absolute conviction that God resurrected Jesus and that Jesus perfectly embodied the nature of God. I can then look at the Sciptures through the lens of of Jesus’ life and teaching. So yes, I don’t believe that God ordered genocide or public stoning as it is totally inconsistent with what Jesus did and taught. I see the Bible as being God inspired but not God dictated. I do agree though that as you go through the OT the message of love that Jesus taught is in there as well. Jesus was a first century Jew speaking primarily to first century Jews.
Tangle writes:
I have given you a couple of times my rationale for things being the way they are. If that means God is not as powerful as you were taught then so be it. I do believe that we are called, and have been given the tools to eliminate much of that suffering. I also believe that ultimately there will be perfect justice and a world without the short comings that you have pointed out.
Well of course intelligence is an emergent quality of an evolving brain so that idea can be immediately dismissed, but sure, if a god was necessary to create a system to start it all in motion, then he'd be pretty powerful. But he's not the omni-god we were all taught about beacuse he made such an appalling hash of it according to how he intended it all to work out. Of course, if you wish to walk away from every traditional idea of a Christian god, all powerful, all loving all seeing etc then you can say anything you like and this world can be as sick as it is without contradiction. But you can't have it both ways. Tangle writes:
But that is a complete misreading of the texts. Jesus did establish an earthly Kingdom of His followers commanded to reflect God’s love into the world. Those readings are not about end times. That is why Jesus is referred to as being King in the present. A King requires a kingdom. Jesus would have understood this through His understanding from the book of Daniel 7:14 where the Son of Man is given dominion over a kingdom where people of all nations and languages might serve him. Jesus taught us in the Lord’s Prayer to pray that His Kingdom would come on Earth as in Heaven. It is a Kingdom established 2000 years ago, and is for the here and now as well as extending into the world to come. I hate to drag you back to the bible because I know you think it's the preserve of the fundamentalist, but Jesus said that this kingdom would come within the lifetimes of the people he preached to. But it didn't happen and to get out of that trap you have to introduce another set of apologetics. The future, sadly, will not see any second coming; any improvement to our wellbeing will only come through our own efforts - as it always has.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes:
We're not trying to prove an issue. We're talking specifically about Occam's razor.You can not make an explanation of your car simpler by insisting that it needs an invisible pink unicorn to pull it. You can believe it till the cows come home and you may even be right but you can't use Occam to back you up. If you can not prove it exists, you can not use it to simplify anything. You are flat-out contradicting Occam I didn't bring up Occam but in response it is my opinion that the simpler explanation of a single intelligence is simpler that a virtually infinite number of instances of random chance. Sure, it adds an intelligent entity but your position adds blind random chance.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Well I just read the book, I don't try to create excuses for what it says.
quote: Not so powerful apparently. This again is not about end times. You are reading in terms of how we understand something written in our own day. This is part of Jesus' political message for the people of His culture and time. It is typical of the Jewish writing of the day. It's the same thing that if we wrote that it was raining cats and dogs that someone 2000 years from now but think that there had been a tornado that sucked up animals and dropped them in another location. Jesus is telling first century Jews to end their ideas of revolution or there would huge upheaval as in other places and the way things were that it would happen in during the life times of some of them. It did happen in 70 AD.
quote: There are the verses right before what you quoted. It is obviously that the passage is political and is about the destruction of Jerusalem.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: I agree that in order to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was forecasting the imminent second coming you have to find an excuse for not reading the bible in a straight forward way. But really, it says what it says - says that Jerusalem will fall and "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. And all this will happen in the generation that is listening. It would be plain to a first century Jew. Read all of Luke 21 so that it is in context. The whole chapter is one continuous teaching and it is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus was leading a counter-temple movement. Jesus was saying that He was a temple replacement, the place where God’s space overlapped with our space, and that the temple would be in the hearts of His followers. So He is saying that when the Temple is destroyed it will be the vindication of what he is saying will happen because of their revolutionary ways. (His message was that the Romans weren’t the enemy but evil itself and evil can only be defeated by love.) When the Temple is destroyed as it was in 70 AD then they can see the prophesy in Daniel 7 being fulfilled where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and given dominion and a kingdom. It can’t be read in a simple straight forward way. As I pointed out, that when we say it’s raining cats and dogs it can’t be understood in a straight forward way. It is talking about a time of considerable political upheaval involving the death of many of the Israelites. I’m not even suggesting that this is supernatural knowledge but is a realistic reading of the situation in the country. There were was a strong revolutionary movement and it didn’t look like that was going to go away. I didn’t get this out of my head. (I’m not that smart . ) One of my hobbies is reading about theology. My favourite among many is N T Wright, and he is very clear on this. Wright is certainly considered one of the leading, if not the leading New Testament scholar today. BTW, I googled around a bit and found an interesting blog on this passage.What did Jesus say would happen in “this generation?” (Luke 21) | Brent Cunningham He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: It really doesn't matter where you got it from - it's still an excuse for a failed prophecy. It's just apologetics. You can't avoid the words and the fact that this predicted second coming hasn't happened not only shortly after his death - which all at the time thought was the message - but still hasn't happened 2,000 years later. It was fulfilled in 70AD. You are like Faith deciding that if you aren't a believer in a straight forward 21st century reading of the Bible it isn't true Christianity. Interestingly enough, my Christian belief is most consistent with the Church of England. My main influences have all been Church of England. (N T Wright, C S Lewis and John Polkinghorne.) I would have thought that would be the church that you would be most familiar with.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: It's hyperbole. For the 3rd or 4th time when we say it's raining cats and dogs we don't mean it to be taken literally.
Except that people appeared not to notice the stars falling, the sun darkening and the end of the world that were supposed to follow the destruction of the temple. It was all of a piece. Tangle writes: Jesus wasn't coming up with supernatural knowledge of what was going to happen but with the knowledge of knowing what the Romans would do in the event of a revolution.
And if you want to be hyper-critical the temple still has 'one stone upon another'. Tangle writes: My belief is in a resurrected Jesus who perfectly embodied the word and wisdom of God.
But it's ok, you can have a personal belief in the CofE - no one is going to burn you for it these days. Tangle writes: Well he did and very much so. Here is a quote from one talk that he gave on the resurrection. I'll provide a link at the end. Incidentally I met the current Archbishop of Canterbury this spring on a trip to Israel.
I'm pretty convinced that the last leader of the CofE didn't actually believe in god - at least not in the way his church teaches it and trains its priests to teach it. I had him as a born again secular humanist. quote: Rowan WilliamsHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes:
It isn't the processes that are necessarily random, although in many cases they are, but the reasons the processes exist in the first place. Is it random chance or intelligence? You're misunderstanding Occam. You can't count every chemical process as an individual complication and then count God as only one. God would have to be infinitely more complex than the sum total of chemical processes.You're also misunderstanding chemistry. Those processes are not random. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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