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Author Topic:   Revolting middle class. If the rich keep funding war with the lives of the lower clas
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 86 (817732)
08-19-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
08-19-2017 10:43 AM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Phat writes:
if the intrinsic nature of the rich is to be greedy and selfish, what prevents all humans from having the same nature?
Social responsibility.
People tend to project their own faults on everybody else and call it "human nature". What human nature really is is a struggle between the need to preserve the individual and the need to preserve the species. The greedy and selfish put their individual welfare first but if that really was "human nature" we wouldn't be social animals at all - and we'd probably be extinct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 08-19-2017 10:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 08-19-2017 2:20 PM ringo has replied
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 10:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 86 (817805)
08-20-2017 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
08-19-2017 2:20 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
If we do not put our selfishness first, and remain as fit mentally and physically as possible, we could not help the rest of society survive and thrive and would have to rely on it's help us to survive and thus be a drain on it.
You contradict yourself. If some of us rely on society to help us survive then there is no such thing as one member of society being "more fit" than another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 08-19-2017 2:20 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2017 7:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 18 of 86 (817806)
08-20-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
08-20-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Sacrificial We Are (as wannabe gods)
Phat writes:
Even though you are an atheist you would likely argue that Jesus sacrificed Himself (the individual) for the benefit of the world (preservation of species)
Not really. Even if Jesus existed, he himself didn't do much for the benefit of the world. He understood the principle of helping each other to preserve the species but unfortunately his followers don't seem to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 10:44 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 4:24 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 22 of 86 (817893)
08-21-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
08-20-2017 4:24 PM


Re: Sacrificial We Are (as wannabe gods)
Phat writes:
If Jesus, of all people, didn't do that much good what possible value is it in being a far left idealist liberal who prides himself on giving spare change to the misbegotten in town and who preaches that we all should help the working class up the economic ladder even if at our own expense?
You're the one who's shooting himself in the foot. It's because Jesus didn't do much that we have to do it.
Phat writes:
Just when I think you understand the value of helping the least of these, I somehow find you stubbornly failing to defend the source which makes it all possible....
The value of helping people doesn't come from some woo-woo "source". The value of helping people is self-contained.
Phat writes:
....unless of course, you believe that we all are our own source and that it is a good thing to put our own futures on hold simply to bring the working class a bit closer to an ideal that we ourselves should ignore!
Yes, I believe we are the only source of good for humanity. You should know that about me by now.
And I'm not asking you to ignore your own future. I'm asking you not to spend it wiping your feet on that homeless guy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 4:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 23 of 86 (817894)
08-21-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Greatest I am
08-20-2017 7:50 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Tell me, if the person who has what it takes to help another who needs it, and he is no fitter than the one he is helping, then the one being helped is not worthy or requiring help as he is as fit as the helpful one. Right?
Wrong. The one who is more fit in one situation may be less fit in another. We help each other; it isn't a one-way street. That's how a society works. There's no divide between the fit helpers and the unfit helpees.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Greatest I am, posted 08-20-2017 7:50 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Greatest I am, posted 08-21-2017 1:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 25 of 86 (817986)
08-22-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Greatest I am
08-21-2017 1:57 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Yes there is a divide between the helpful and fittest and those who need help to be more fit.
The divide is taxpayer and tax taker.
What does that have to do with fitness? The tax takers are taxpayers too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Greatest I am, posted 08-21-2017 1:57 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Greatest I am, posted 08-22-2017 11:46 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 27 of 86 (817993)
08-22-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Greatest I am
08-22-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Would you prefer to be a tax payer or a tax taker?
It makes no difference. Tax takers have to pay taxes too - and both are recipients of the benefits of taxes. Fitness is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Greatest I am, posted 08-22-2017 11:46 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Greatest I am, posted 09-03-2017 2:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 86 (818950)
09-04-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Greatest I am
09-03-2017 2:33 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
I thought you said the opposite, that tax collectors have the advantage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Greatest I am, posted 09-03-2017 2:33 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Greatest I am, posted 09-04-2017 5:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 86 (819032)
09-05-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Greatest I am
09-04-2017 5:10 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Tax takers, not tax collectors, are at the mercy of the generosity of the state. I do not see that as an advantage.
Huh? What's the difference between a tax taker and a tax collector? Is English your second language?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Greatest I am, posted 09-04-2017 5:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 09-05-2017 5:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 33 of 86 (819127)
09-06-2017 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Greatest I am
09-05-2017 5:05 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
A tax collector is the state. A tax taker is on the dole or some other form of state hand out.
In English, a person on the dole would be called a welfare recipient, not a "tax taker".
So back to the topic: How is a welfare recipient "less fit"? He is surviving. He is reproducing. Where does "fitness" come in?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Greatest I am, posted 09-05-2017 5:05 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 09-06-2017 7:58 PM ringo has replied
 Message 35 by Pressie, posted 09-07-2017 6:27 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 86 (819158)
09-07-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Greatest I am
09-06-2017 7:58 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
... if living in a place without social programs, that person will likely starve I he is not fit enough to feed himself.
People were feeding themselves for millennia before there were social programs. Most of the people in the world today don't have any social "safety net".
Greatest I am writes:
If people liked to be beggars or on the dole, they would not be trying to get off of the social programs. Right?
People DO get off the dole, which seems to negate your point.
Greatest I am writes:
To suggest that those who pay the way for others are no more fit than the other is quite insulting to the fit who are footing the bills.
First, there isn't one group who are paying in and one group who are taking out. Second, it still has nothing to do with fitness. The ones on the dole ARE fit to survive; they DO survive. If it hurts your little feelings to think of them as equals, boo hoo, but it doesn't make them "less fit".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Greatest I am, posted 09-06-2017 7:58 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 42 of 86 (819159)
09-07-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Pressie
09-07-2017 6:27 AM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Pressie writes:
In my country it's called "social security". More than half of the country's population depend on that grant. Having an average of 6 children per uneducated women by equally uneducated and unknown fathers.
The others, who have to pay for it, are leaving the country in droves. A Zimbabwe-type non-future has arrived in SA.
Sounds like you need a Trump to fix that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Pressie, posted 09-07-2017 6:27 AM Pressie has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 44 of 86 (819164)
09-07-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Greatest I am
09-07-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
I disagree on all points.
So tell us why you disagree.
Greatest I am writes:
Equality under the law is not equality of outcome until we die.
I didn't say anything about equality under the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 12:11 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 48 of 86 (819170)
09-07-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Greatest I am
09-07-2017 1:03 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
You did a disservice to all the millions who starve to death yearly as well as telling the less fit, who know that they are not as fit as some...
They don't starve because they are "less fit". A victim is not "less fit". Calling them "less fit" is doing them a disservice, as if they deserve to die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:03 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:45 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 50 of 86 (819264)
09-08-2017 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Greatest I am
09-07-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
You think your way I will think mine.
You can think your way all you want without posting here. But if you're going to post here, back up what you claim.
So far, what you've said about "fitness" is nonsense. Society is a matter of give and take. Those who take also give. You can not determine who is "fit" based on whether they are giving or taking at a given moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Greatest I am, posted 09-07-2017 1:45 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Greatest I am, posted 09-08-2017 1:54 PM ringo has replied

  
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