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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 260 of 283 (817796)
08-20-2017 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Phat
08-20-2017 10:36 AM


Re: Blaming Or Crediting A Hypothetical
Phat writes:
In other words, belief or lack of belief is irrelevant regarding the responsibility that humanity has to address AIDS, Ebola, Tsunamis, Terrorist marches, Group Behavior, and isolated global actions that harm or kill others.
Perhaps, Tangle...this is the point you want religious folks to see.
Wahey, by George he's got it!
Regardless of god/s what we have to do is be responsible for ourselves and others and set up the institutions that can improve our lives - health, education, criminal justice, welfare, industry, environment etc etc.
Meanwhile, it would help if we did away with all the spurious activity that wastes time and energy and creates diferences bewteen people so that they can fight about them. Just think how much more we could do with all than time and money absorbed by our religious institutions that could actually be doing something useful.
Finally--- Although I do not see God as a hypothetical. I am now saying that my beliefs do not ultimately matter in regards to my responsibilities as a global citizen. I can and do pray...and I can and do try to use logic, reason, and reality-based thinking when possible.
Maybe you'll get round to noticing that that the praying bit is unnecessary too.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Phat, posted 08-20-2017 10:36 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 267 of 283 (817847)
08-21-2017 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by GDR
08-20-2017 6:30 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
As an atheist you are pretty clear about what Christians believe.
Very few atheists start out as atheists, most are brought up with the religion of their parents. I was brought up as a Christian I therefore know what my fairly standard, non-fundamental version of Christianity believes and teaches. I also attend various birth, death and marriage services and hear what is still preached. Please don't pretend I don't understand what Christians are taught and believe.
However, I have pointed out many times here that it's almost impossible to discuss issues like this in a general manner because each one of you here believes different things about it. Essentially you each make up your own versions.
As NN says you sound like Faith. You are arguing against the fundamentalist view of Scripture. The majority of Christians probably don't even think about that, let alone believe it.
It's true that I do refer to scripture because that is the origin of your belief - I'm not going to apologise for that. I know Adam and Eve is total fantasy, but that's what's written and taught. I accept too that most liberal Christians have abandoned those bits of the bible that are now known to be either too violent to depict the sort of god that is currently fashionable, or too childish for a grown-up to believe or just disproved by modern knowledge, but that leaves you with no anchor, simply making it up.
We know that mankind has the knowledge of good and evil and is able to make and act on moral choices. It seems that any intelligence that can bring about the existence that we know today, even if imperfect is anything but puny.
Well of course intelligence is an emergent quality of an evolving brain so that idea can be immediately dismissed, but sure, if a god was necessary to create a system to start it all in motion, then he'd be pretty powerful. But he's not the omni-god we were all taught about beacuse he made such an appalling hash of it according to how he intended it all to work out.
Of course, if you wish to walk away from every traditional idea of a Christian god, all powerful, all loving all seeing etc then you can say anything you like and this world can be as sick as it is without contradiction. But you can't have it both ways.
Jesus taught us to pray "thy kingdom come on earth as in heaven". God, through Jesus, acknowledges that things aren't the way they should be, but as we can see in the teachings that we have of Jesus, we are called to enact in the present what will be fully realized in the future.
I hate to drag you back to the bible because I know you think it's the preserve of the fundamentalist, but Jesus said that this kingdom would come within the lifetimes of the people he preached to. But it didn't happen and to get out of that trap you have to introduce another set of apologetics. The future, sadly, will not see any second coming; any improvement to our wellbeing will only come through our own efforts - as it always has.
One thing that is obvious to any theist is that God made us co-creators in the process. We are also in the view of I think pretty much any Christian, that we are given responsibility to be stewards of this planet and the life on it. So where there is suffering for whatever reason, we are called to do whatever we can to relieve it. Sometimes we do a good job of it and often we fail miserably but that is what we are called to.
Well this is a terribly modern idea isn't it? This position would have been an anathema to a 17th century Christian. It's pure humanism - congratulations! This shows hope for the future, Western religion is fading into a liberal mush which is a very good thing indeed.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
I am Finland. I am Barcelona.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by GDR, posted 08-20-2017 6:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 3:04 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 272 of 283 (818011)
08-22-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by GDR
08-22-2017 3:04 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
You may call that wishful thinking but after considerable study I contend that it makes sense of my life and the world in a way that nothing else does.
Absolutely! That's why god was invented - to explain things we don't understand. It's also why you don't believe what your Christian ancestors believed - despite reading the same book and having no more knowledge of god than they did.
Your fashionable modern beliefs are fashioned by our increased understanding of the world and your interpetation of the bible is moderated by it. Nevertheless, it says what it says.
The rest of your post just repeats what you believe.
But that is a complete misreading of the texts.
Well I just read the book, I don't try to create excuses for what it says.
quote:
The Second Coming of Christ (Luke 21:25-36)
25 There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
29 He told them this parable: Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven are and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
34 Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.
It was pretty obvious that everyone that followed him thought that Jesus's death presaged his immediate return on 'a cloud with power and glory'.
Not so powerful apparently.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 3:04 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 4:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 274 of 283 (818023)
08-22-2017 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by GDR
08-22-2017 4:09 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
There are the verses right before what you quoted. It is obviously that the passage is political and is about the destruction of Jerusalem.
I agree that in order to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was forecasting the imminent second coming you have to find an excuse for not reading the bible in a straight forward way. But really, it says what it says - says that Jerusalem will fall and "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
And all this will happen in the generation that is listening.
It's plain GDR. But I'm not interested in trading literary criticisms - you just believe what you believe and find reasons for it. To me it's interesting how those beliefs have been moderated over time. Your beliefs are absolutely nothing like your predecessors but you have the same book and no further information.
I've done a lot of travelling in the last few years - a lot of countries very quickly. There are temples everywhere man has been, there are superstitions of all kinds, lucky numbers and foods, it's really, really clear that people can and do believe almost anything at all. The world carried by a giant turtle is a real belief system, not just a Terry Pratchett invention. Your belief is just the same as all the others - an invention.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 4:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 8:22 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 276 of 283 (818050)
08-23-2017 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
08-22-2017 8:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
I didn’t get this out of my head.
It really doesn't matter where you got it from - it's still an excuse for a failed prophecy. It's just apologetics. You can't avoid the words and the fact that this predicted second coming hasn't happened not only shortly after his death - which all at the time thought was the message - but still hasn't happened 2,000 years later.
I note that you failed to quote your favourite apologist on this, C S Lewis - the most embarrassing verse in the Bible and an exhibition of error. His 'explanation' for the failure is simply that Jesus is human and just gets things wrong like we all do.
Meanwhile the Christian belief system evolves around you such that what was believed by people reading the same words as you only a few hundred years ago is radically different from what you belive today. And that almost everyone reading those words is able to interpret them 'in context' to mean what they need them to mean. The end result is what we see, every believer achieves a personal belief and tens of thousands of Christian sects are founded.
The consequence of all this plus the advancement of modern societies through science and our improving institutions of education, welfare and justice is turning Christian beliefs into liberal humanism with an overlay of basic theism with theism gradually erroding. This is no bad thing.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 8:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 11:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 279 of 283 (818128)
08-23-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by GDR
08-23-2017 11:03 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
It was fulfilled in 70AD.
Except that people appeared not to notice the stars falling, the sun darkening and the end of the world that were supposed to follow the destruction of the temple. It was all of a piece. And if you want to be hyper-critical the temple still has 'one stone upon another'. But it doesn't matter, you'll have apologetics for that too. Christians are able to flex their interpretations to suit the mood and fashions of their times.
My main influences have all been Church of England. (N T Wright, C S Lewis and John Polkinghorne.) I would have thought that would be the church that you would be most familiar with.
I am very familiar with it. You think there is unanimity within it?! The Church of England is almost benign, being neutered by the reformation then the enlightenment. It's now mostly a liberal mush and much better for it. My mother was CofE - believed in heaven but not hell or the devil. Didn't suit her to believe that bit.
But it's ok, you can have a personal belief in the CofE - no one is going to burn you for it these days.
I'm pretty convinced that the last leader of the CofE didn't actually believe in god - at least not in the way his church teaches it and trains its priests to teach it. I had him as a born again secular humanist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 11:03 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 10:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 282 of 283 (818136)
08-24-2017 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by GDR
08-23-2017 10:14 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:
It's hyperbole. For the 3rd or 4th time when we say it's raining cats and dogs we don't mean it to be taken literally.
Hyperbole my arse. This isn't a one liner that you could dismiss as exageration, it's a repeated and detailed claim made by several writers found throughout the bible. It's a prediction.
Williams is a lovely, clever man, but he's just making stuff up to suit his beliefs. If you listen to him not in preacher-mode you realise that there's a hair's breadth between his beliefs and a secular humanist, he just has to justify them with all this apologetic blather. (Occam again.)
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
—Mark 13:24-29 (KJV)
Matthew 24:30 all the tribes of the earth will be able to see the Son of Man’s coming in the clouds The destruction of the temple is a sign of the second coming and the end of the world
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
—Matthew 24:1-3 (KJV)
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
—Luke 21:28-31 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
—Mark 9:1 (KJV)
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
—Matthew 16:28 (KJV)
What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.
—1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NIV)
According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, we who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
—1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NIV)
For in just a very little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.
—Hebrews 10:37 (NIV)
You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
—James 5:8-9 (NIV)
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
—1 Peter 4:7 (KJV)
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
—1 John 2:18 (KJV)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
—Revelation 1:1,3 (KJV)
Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.'
—John 21:22 (NIV)
When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
—Matthew 10:23 (NIV)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 10:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
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