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Author Topic:   The Giant Pool Of Money. Implications
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 282 of 423 (816757)
08-10-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Taq
08-10-2017 2:34 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
This is true, although we are at the opposite end of that political spectrum at the moment.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 2:34 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Taq, posted 08-10-2017 6:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 296 of 423 (816822)
08-11-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
08-11-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
CatSci quite likely has an inheritance because his parents were part of the middle class that was able to save and invest so as to leave something for their children...provided they didnt need it for their own retirement/health care. What I'm complaining about is that you could care less about a middle class similar to how my parents were but would rather pay everyone below middle class enough to get off government assistance---not realizing that they still wont be able to leave anything to their heirs. What kind of American Dream is that???

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 08-11-2017 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by Riggamortis, posted 08-11-2017 10:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 08-12-2017 11:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 301 of 423 (816943)
08-14-2017 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by ringo
08-12-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:
I'm saying that propping up the middle class makes the working class worse off - because those things are not being done for the working class.
True...but if you help the absolute bottom first, the middle will suffer and collapse back down into the working class. I didn't work hard all my life to simply earn minimum wage forever.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 08-12-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2017 10:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 305 of 423 (816989)
08-14-2017 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by ringo
08-14-2017 12:21 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
What makes you special?
I am not asking for the entitlement. I am only asking for the continued opportunity. If all wages were cut so that everyone who was not an owner had to work for minimum wage, I would see that as patently unfair. In my union, we are rewarded with higher wages based upon years of service. When an employee is just in or out of high school, they don't need the same amount of money as a parent or potential retiree needs.
Of course, I forget that you are quite far to the left. I am not right wing but am most definitely a moderate. I see advantages to both extremes.
Every citizen should have the opportunity to earn more than when they were first hired. If you remove that incentive, what have you got left?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 1:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 307 of 423 (817104)
08-15-2017 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by ringo
08-14-2017 1:07 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:
I'm in favour of raising wages - but starting at the bottom.
Knowing full well that leveling everyone out won't work...why deprive the middle class of their efforts? You seem to be favoring the working class. One could argue that this is just as bad as favoring the upper class (as Republicans do) or favoring the middle class (as I do)
I totally get your philosophy of bringing all classes closer together. I'm just angry that the middle group gets squeezed lower. Boo Hoo indeed!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 08-14-2017 1:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by ringo, posted 08-15-2017 1:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 310 by xongsmith, posted 08-15-2017 7:02 PM Phat has replied
 Message 423 by ramoss, posted 02-05-2020 7:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 311 of 423 (817250)
08-16-2017 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by xongsmith
08-15-2017 7:02 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Hear Hear!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by xongsmith, posted 08-15-2017 7:02 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 423 (817322)
08-16-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by ringo
08-16-2017 3:16 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo writes:
The working class is still more down-trodden than the middle class. And part of the down-treading is by the middle class.
You can't really expect the middle class to be altruistic communists who sacrifice their own goals in order to allow all of their poor oppressed comrades to climb the ladder of equality to their level, can you? Human nature does not work like that. We all want to be included in the deal.
xongsmith writes:
If you are getting $18 an hour and the minimum goes from $7.25 up to $14.00, your $18 becomes $34.76. Or maybe give the 18 the same increase, up to $24.75. It's the assholes at the top, the 0.01% who should pay for all this.
Although I see in retrospect why the corporations do not want class unity between lower and middle. The past two contracts they offered a raise only to the top tier. There was not enough of a desire to fight for that, since the alternative would have been the elimination of seniority and an equalization of wages and benefits at the expense of the more senior people.
ringo writes:
The government can set a minimum wage, just like it can set a maximum speed on the highway, but it can't set every wage. And you can be damn sure that Phat's union would be first to oppose your plan. They want the power to negotiate more, if possible.
I'm not sure if I agree. The union wants everyone to benefit from a contract offer, but only a certain percentage of members are active enough to push this through. We can usually get enough of a vote to pass or block a contract proposal, but member participation is only at best 20%.
Too many members run to the company to negotiate individually for their future success, and time and time again we see them used, worn out, and transferred or quit. The companies know they can promise people decent wages provided the promise is not tied to a contract involving everybody. Additionally, the companies want to get rid of seniority so that they can force the higher wage people to do the hardest work and hire enough new people to fill in the balance....which weakens the union since we cannot promise a better deal for all if the "middle class" older workers are competing with the "working class" newer workers.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 3:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 316 of 423 (817326)
08-16-2017 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by ringo
08-16-2017 4:07 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
Are you saying that if the minimum wage went up to $14.00 and the government (somehow) mandated $24.75 for your job, your union wouldn't ask for $28.00?
No, obviously not. I'm not in favor of the government mandating anything..(except perhaps a minimum wage) because if we allowed the wages to fall below ten dollars an hour, we would again have an exploited working class to a greater degree than we now have and you can bet the companies would also try and continue to get rid of the existing middle-class wages that we have fought so hard to get.
The republican (like petrophysics) would argue that individual initiative should be the road to success, but I've seen corporate bosses turn on each other and eliminate jobs from among their own.
Its a cutthroat culture of survival.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by ringo, posted 08-16-2017 4:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 330 of 423 (817587)
08-18-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
ringo,to NCE writes:
Your point seems to be that minimum wage earners don't deserve to be treated fairly. If that isn't your point, feel free to elaborate.
My point is that your point is wrong.
I might only add fairly but not preferentially.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:15 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 332 of 423 (817591)
08-18-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
it seems to me that the only option you suggest is to ignore the middle class until the proverbial tide raises all of the boats. My beef is that the middle class should receive the same benefits the working class does.
If by "preferentially" you charge that I support a separate class from the masses of workers, I will agree. The alternative is to get nothing while the bottom raises up to the middle.(Making a new bottom)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:44 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 335 of 423 (817617)
08-18-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by ringo
08-18-2017 12:44 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
There will always be a bottom. What's wrong with making the bottom a little better?
Nothing.
There will also always be a top. Why ignore your healthy climbers while attending only to the stragglers? It seems unfair for the climbers to have to struggle harder than the rest only for the right to make life better for their families.
You say Boo Hoo as if you have no sympathy for a man who showed up on time every day, gave a better than average effort, and socked away his spare change for the dream of a retirement, but seemingly would applaud a man who gave everything up for himself in order that the poorer masses could achieve whatever you deem normal for them to achieve....health care, perhaps.
Granted I see your point. The sick need the attention first. Let us not ignore those of us who climbed out of mediocrity and worked twice as hard to better our families rather than simply the social structure as a whole.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 12:44 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 338 of 423 (817791)
08-20-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 337 by ringo
08-19-2017 11:46 AM


Atheists Often Make The Best Preachers
ringo writes:
Who is this angelic being who "gave everything up"?
Matthew 25.
ringo writes:
I'm for making the struggle easier for the ones who are struggling most.
Matthew 25.
You give a whole new definition to the term "Left Behind.
Perhaps the Right Wing all gets raptured off to Neverland!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ringo, posted 08-20-2017 2:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 341 of 423 (818019)
08-22-2017 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by New Cat's Eye
08-22-2017 1:39 PM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
CatSci writes:
it depends on the value of the work they are providing to the employer. And that is fair.
It depends on who is defining the value.
Some employers believe that minimum wage is too high.
From my unions point of view, it is employees...not customers...who provide every nickel of profit that a corporation is going to make. The workers define the value.
So again---who gets to define the value?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-22-2017 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 423 (818022)
08-22-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by ringo
08-19-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
I was talking about my Father, who worked twice as hard 2in order to better the lives and future of his family. There are a few of the working class who have pulled themselves up---by sheer effort---to become middle class. All I am saying is not to ignore helping them simply to help the hungriest of the working class. During the time you are helping one group, the other groups get no help. I am not a champion of pulling the bottom up to the middle if it means the middle has to keep their position all on their own with fewer resources (wage increases) that are being diverted to the bottom. I am most definitely not a Marxist.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 344 of 423 (818083)
08-23-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Hollowed Out Middle Class
But the basic problem is that while inflation is going up, wages (for the middle and the working classes) are stagnant or even dropping.
We need stronger unions! We need to force these corporations to share more of the wealth!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 11:32 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2017 12:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 352 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:18 PM Phat has replied

  
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