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Author | Topic: Calvinism and Arminianism remix | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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ringo writes:
We're not trying to prove an issue. We're talking specifically about Occam's razor.You can not make an explanation of your car simpler by insisting that it needs an invisible pink unicorn to pull it. You can believe it till the cows come home and you may even be right but you can't use Occam to back you up. If you can not prove it exists, you can not use it to simplify anything. You are flat-out contradicting Occam I didn't bring up Occam but in response it is my opinion that the simpler explanation of a single intelligence is simpler that a virtually infinite number of instances of random chance. Sure, it adds an intelligent entity but your position adds blind random chance.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: You may call that wishful thinking but after considerable study I contend that it makes sense of my life and the world in a way that nothing else does. Absolutely! That's why god was invented - to explain things we don't understand. It's also why you don't believe what your Christian ancestors believed - despite reading the same book and having no more knowledge of god than they did. Your fashionable modern beliefs are fashioned by our increased understanding of the world and your interpetation of the bible is moderated by it. Nevertheless, it says what it says. The rest of your post just repeats what you believe.
But that is a complete misreading of the texts. Well I just read the book, I don't try to create excuses for what it says.
quote: It was pretty obvious that everyone that followed him thought that Jesus's death presaged his immediate return on 'a cloud with power and glory'. Not so powerful apparently. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: Well I just read the book, I don't try to create excuses for what it says.
quote: Not so powerful apparently. This again is not about end times. You are reading in terms of how we understand something written in our own day. This is part of Jesus' political message for the people of His culture and time. It is typical of the Jewish writing of the day. It's the same thing that if we wrote that it was raining cats and dogs that someone 2000 years from now but think that there had been a tornado that sucked up animals and dropped them in another location. Jesus is telling first century Jews to end their ideas of revolution or there would huge upheaval as in other places and the way things were that it would happen in during the life times of some of them. It did happen in 70 AD.
quote: There are the verses right before what you quoted. It is obviously that the passage is political and is about the destruction of Jerusalem.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: There are the verses right before what you quoted. It is obviously that the passage is political and is about the destruction of Jerusalem. I agree that in order to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was forecasting the imminent second coming you have to find an excuse for not reading the bible in a straight forward way. But really, it says what it says - says that Jerusalem will fall and "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. And all this will happen in the generation that is listening. It's plain GDR. But I'm not interested in trading literary criticisms - you just believe what you believe and find reasons for it. To me it's interesting how those beliefs have been moderated over time. Your beliefs are absolutely nothing like your predecessors but you have the same book and no further information. I've done a lot of travelling in the last few years - a lot of countries very quickly. There are temples everywhere man has been, there are superstitions of all kinds, lucky numbers and foods, it's really, really clear that people can and do believe almost anything at all. The world carried by a giant turtle is a real belief system, not just a Terry Pratchett invention. Your belief is just the same as all the others - an invention.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: I agree that in order to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was forecasting the imminent second coming you have to find an excuse for not reading the bible in a straight forward way. But really, it says what it says - says that Jerusalem will fall and "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. And all this will happen in the generation that is listening. It would be plain to a first century Jew. Read all of Luke 21 so that it is in context. The whole chapter is one continuous teaching and it is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus was leading a counter-temple movement. Jesus was saying that He was a temple replacement, the place where God’s space overlapped with our space, and that the temple would be in the hearts of His followers. So He is saying that when the Temple is destroyed it will be the vindication of what he is saying will happen because of their revolutionary ways. (His message was that the Romans weren’t the enemy but evil itself and evil can only be defeated by love.) When the Temple is destroyed as it was in 70 AD then they can see the prophesy in Daniel 7 being fulfilled where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days and given dominion and a kingdom. It can’t be read in a simple straight forward way. As I pointed out, that when we say it’s raining cats and dogs it can’t be understood in a straight forward way. It is talking about a time of considerable political upheaval involving the death of many of the Israelites. I’m not even suggesting that this is supernatural knowledge but is a realistic reading of the situation in the country. There were was a strong revolutionary movement and it didn’t look like that was going to go away. I didn’t get this out of my head. (I’m not that smart . ) One of my hobbies is reading about theology. My favourite among many is N T Wright, and he is very clear on this. Wright is certainly considered one of the leading, if not the leading New Testament scholar today. BTW, I googled around a bit and found an interesting blog on this passage.What did Jesus say would happen in “this generation?” (Luke 21) | Brent Cunningham He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: I didn’t get this out of my head. It really doesn't matter where you got it from - it's still an excuse for a failed prophecy. It's just apologetics. You can't avoid the words and the fact that this predicted second coming hasn't happened not only shortly after his death - which all at the time thought was the message - but still hasn't happened 2,000 years later. I note that you failed to quote your favourite apologist on this, C S Lewis - the most embarrassing verse in the Bible and an exhibition of error. His 'explanation' for the failure is simply that Jesus is human and just gets things wrong like we all do. Meanwhile the Christian belief system evolves around you such that what was believed by people reading the same words as you only a few hundred years ago is radically different from what you belive today. And that almost everyone reading those words is able to interpret them 'in context' to mean what they need them to mean. The end result is what we see, every believer achieves a personal belief and tens of thousands of Christian sects are founded. The consequence of all this plus the advancement of modern societies through science and our improving institutions of education, welfare and justice is turning Christian beliefs into liberal humanism with an overlay of basic theism with theism gradually erroding. This is no bad thing. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: It really doesn't matter where you got it from - it's still an excuse for a failed prophecy. It's just apologetics. You can't avoid the words and the fact that this predicted second coming hasn't happened not only shortly after his death - which all at the time thought was the message - but still hasn't happened 2,000 years later. It was fulfilled in 70AD. You are like Faith deciding that if you aren't a believer in a straight forward 21st century reading of the Bible it isn't true Christianity. Interestingly enough, my Christian belief is most consistent with the Church of England. My main influences have all been Church of England. (N T Wright, C S Lewis and John Polkinghorne.) I would have thought that would be the church that you would be most familiar with.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You're misunderstanding Occam. You can't count every chemical process as an individual complication and then count God as only one. God would have to be infinitely more complex than the sum total of chemical processes. I didn't bring up Occam but in response it is my opinion that the simpler explanation of a single intelligence is simpler that a virtually infinite number of instances of random chance. You're also misunderstanding chemistry. Those processes are not random.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: It was fulfilled in 70AD. Except that people appeared not to notice the stars falling, the sun darkening and the end of the world that were supposed to follow the destruction of the temple. It was all of a piece. And if you want to be hyper-critical the temple still has 'one stone upon another'. But it doesn't matter, you'll have apologetics for that too. Christians are able to flex their interpretations to suit the mood and fashions of their times.
My main influences have all been Church of England. (N T Wright, C S Lewis and John Polkinghorne.) I would have thought that would be the church that you would be most familiar with. I am very familiar with it. You think there is unanimity within it?! The Church of England is almost benign, being neutered by the reformation then the enlightenment. It's now mostly a liberal mush and much better for it. My mother was CofE - believed in heaven but not hell or the devil. Didn't suit her to believe that bit. But it's ok, you can have a personal belief in the CofE - no one is going to burn you for it these days. I'm pretty convinced that the last leader of the CofE didn't actually believe in god - at least not in the way his church teaches it and trains its priests to teach it. I had him as a born again secular humanist.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: It's hyperbole. For the 3rd or 4th time when we say it's raining cats and dogs we don't mean it to be taken literally.
Except that people appeared not to notice the stars falling, the sun darkening and the end of the world that were supposed to follow the destruction of the temple. It was all of a piece. Tangle writes: Jesus wasn't coming up with supernatural knowledge of what was going to happen but with the knowledge of knowing what the Romans would do in the event of a revolution.
And if you want to be hyper-critical the temple still has 'one stone upon another'. Tangle writes: My belief is in a resurrected Jesus who perfectly embodied the word and wisdom of God.
But it's ok, you can have a personal belief in the CofE - no one is going to burn you for it these days. Tangle writes: Well he did and very much so. Here is a quote from one talk that he gave on the resurrection. I'll provide a link at the end. Incidentally I met the current Archbishop of Canterbury this spring on a trip to Israel.
I'm pretty convinced that the last leader of the CofE didn't actually believe in god - at least not in the way his church teaches it and trains its priests to teach it. I had him as a born again secular humanist. quote: Rowan WilliamsHe has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
ringo writes:
It isn't the processes that are necessarily random, although in many cases they are, but the reasons the processes exist in the first place. Is it random chance or intelligence? You're misunderstanding Occam. You can't count every chemical process as an individual complication and then count God as only one. God would have to be infinitely more complex than the sum total of chemical processes.You're also misunderstanding chemistry. Those processes are not random. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
GDR writes: It's hyperbole. For the 3rd or 4th time when we say it's raining cats and dogs we don't mean it to be taken literally. Hyperbole my arse. This isn't a one liner that you could dismiss as exageration, it's a repeated and detailed claim made by several writers found throughout the bible. It's a prediction. Williams is a lovely, clever man, but he's just making stuff up to suit his beliefs. If you listen to him not in preacher-mode you realise that there's a hair's breadth between his beliefs and a secular humanist, he just has to justify them with all this apologetic blather. (Occam again.) But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.—Mark 13:24-29 (KJV) Matthew 24:30 all the tribes of the earth will be able to see the Son of Man’s coming in the clouds The destruction of the temple is a sign of the second coming and the end of the world And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?—Matthew 24:1-3 (KJV) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.—Luke 21:28-31 (KJV) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.—Mark 9:1 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.—Matthew 16:28 (KJV) What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.—1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NIV) According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, we who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.—1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NIV) For in just a very little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.—Hebrews 10:37 (NIV) You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!—James 5:8-9 (NIV) But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.—1 Peter 4:7 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.—1 John 2:18 (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.—Revelation 1:1,3 (KJV) Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.'—John 21:22 (NIV) When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.—Matthew 10:23 (NIV) Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You're trying to add a complex reason instead of a simple one. That contradicts Occam.
It isn't the processes that are necessarily random, although in many cases they are, but the reasons the processes exist in the first place. Is it random chance or intelligence?
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