Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-19-2017 6:39 PM
351 online now:
Coragyps, Coyote, JonF, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat) (5 members, 346 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Happy Birthday: AdminPhat
Post Volume:
Total: 819,118 Year: 23,724/21,208 Month: 1,689/2,468 Week: 198/822 Day: 73/69 Hour: 0/5

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1415161718
19
Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 271 of 283 (818008)
08-22-2017 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
08-21-2017 11:56 AM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:


We're not trying to prove an issue. We're talking specifically about Occam's razor.
You can not make an explanation of your car simpler by insisting that it needs an invisible pink unicorn to pull it. You can believe it till the cows come home and you may even be right but you can't use Occam to back you up. If you can not prove it exists, you can not use it to simplify anything. You are flat-out contradicting Occam

I didn't bring up Occam but in response it is my opinion that the simpler explanation of a single intelligence is simpler that a virtually infinite number of instances of random chance. Sure, it adds an intelligent entity but your position adds blind random chance.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 08-21-2017 11:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:26 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 272 of 283 (818011)
08-22-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by GDR
08-22-2017 3:04 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:

You may call that wishful thinking but after considerable study I contend that it makes sense of my life and the world in a way that nothing else does.

Absolutely! That's why god was invented - to explain things we don't understand. It's also why you don't believe what your Christian ancestors believed - despite reading the same book and having no more knowledge of god than they did.

Your fashionable modern beliefs are fashioned by our increased understanding of the world and your interpetation of the bible is moderated by it. Nevertheless, it says what it says.

The rest of your post just repeats what you believe.

But that is a complete misreading of the texts.

Well I just read the book, I don't try to create excuses for what it says.

quote:
The Second Coming of Christ (Luke 21:25-36)

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven are and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”


It was pretty obvious that everyone that followed him thought that Jesus's death presaged his immediate return on 'a cloud with power and glory'.

Not so powerful apparently.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 3:04 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 4:09 PM Tangle has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 273 of 283 (818015)
08-22-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Tangle
08-22-2017 3:39 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

Well I just read the book, I don't try to create excuses for what it says.

quote:

The Second Coming of Christ (Luke 21:25-36)
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven are and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
It was pretty obvious that everyone that followed him thought that Jesus's death presaged his immediate return on 'a cloud with power and glory'.


Not so powerful apparently.

This again is not about end times. You are reading in terms of how we understand something written in our own day. This is part of Jesus' political message for the people of His culture and time. It is typical of the Jewish writing of the day. It's the same thing that if we wrote that it was raining cats and dogs that someone 2000 years from now but think that there had been a tornado that sucked up animals and dropped them in another location.

Jesus is telling first century Jews to end their ideas of revolution or there would huge upheaval as in other places and the way things were that it would happen in during the life times of some of them. It did happen in 70 AD.

quote:
19 Stand firm, and you will win life. 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

There are the verses right before what you quoted. It is obviously that the passage is political and is about the destruction of Jerusalem.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2017 3:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2017 4:34 PM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 274 of 283 (818023)
08-22-2017 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by GDR
08-22-2017 4:09 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:

There are the verses right before what you quoted. It is obviously that the passage is political and is about the destruction of Jerusalem.

I agree that in order to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was forecasting the imminent second coming you have to find an excuse for not reading the bible in a straight forward way. But really, it says what it says - says that Jerusalem will fall and "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

And all this will happen in the generation that is listening.

It's plain GDR. But I'm not interested in trading literary criticisms - you just believe what you believe and find reasons for it. To me it's interesting how those beliefs have been moderated over time. Your beliefs are absolutely nothing like your predecessors but you have the same book and no further information.

I've done a lot of travelling in the last few years - a lot of countries very quickly. There are temples everywhere man has been, there are superstitions of all kinds, lucky numbers and foods, it's really, really clear that people can and do believe almost anything at all. The world carried by a giant turtle is a real belief system, not just a Terry Pratchett invention. Your belief is just the same as all the others - an invention.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 4:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 8:22 PM Tangle has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 275 of 283 (818039)
08-22-2017 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Tangle
08-22-2017 4:34 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

I agree that in order to avoid the conclusion that Jesus was forecasting the imminent second coming you have to find an excuse for not reading the bible in a straight forward way. But really, it says what it says - says that Jerusalem will fall and "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

And all this will happen in the generation that is listening.

It would be plain to a first century Jew. Read all of Luke 21 so that it is in context. The whole chapter is one continuous teaching and it is about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Jesus was leading a counter-temple movement. Jesus was saying that He was a temple replacement, the place where God’s space overlapped with our space, and that the temple would be in the hearts of His followers.

So He is saying that when the Temple is destroyed it will be the vindication of what he is saying will happen because of their revolutionary ways. (His message was that the Romans weren’t the enemy but evil itself and evil can only be defeated by love.) When the Temple is destroyed as it was in 70 AD then they can see the prophesy in Daniel 7 being fulfilled where the “Son of Man” is presented to the “Ancient of Days” and given dominion and a kingdom.

It can’t be read in a simple straight forward way. As I pointed out, that when we say it’s raining cats and dogs it can’t be understood in a straight forward way. It is talking about a time of considerable political upheaval involving the death of many of the Israelites. I’m not even suggesting that this is supernatural knowledge but is a realistic reading of the situation in the country. There were was a strong revolutionary movement and it didn’t look like that was going to go away.

I didn’t get this out of my head. (I’m not that smart . ) One of my hobbies is reading about theology. My favourite among many is N T Wright, and he is very clear on this. Wright is certainly considered one of the leading, if not the leading New Testament scholar today.

BTW, I googled around a bit and found an interesting blog on this passage.
http://www.brentcunningham.org/?p=318


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Tangle, posted 08-22-2017 4:34 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 08-23-2017 1:26 AM GDR has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 276 of 283 (818050)
08-23-2017 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by GDR
08-22-2017 8:22 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:

I didn’t get this out of my head.

It really doesn't matter where you got it from - it's still an excuse for a failed prophecy. It's just apologetics. You can't avoid the words and the fact that this predicted second coming hasn't happened not only shortly after his death - which all at the time thought was the message - but still hasn't happened 2,000 years later.

I note that you failed to quote your favourite apologist on this, C S Lewis - “the most embarrassing verse in the Bible” and an “exhibition of error”. His 'explanation' for the failure is simply that Jesus is human and just gets things wrong like we all do.

Meanwhile the Christian belief system evolves around you such that what was believed by people reading the same words as you only a few hundred years ago is radically different from what you belive today. And that almost everyone reading those words is able to interpret them 'in context' to mean what they need them to mean. The end result is what we see, every believer achieves a personal belief and tens of thousands of Christian sects are founded.

The consequence of all this plus the advancement of modern societies through science and our improving institutions of education, welfare and justice is turning Christian beliefs into liberal humanism with an overlay of basic theism with theism gradually erroding. This is no bad thing.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 8:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 11:03 AM Tangle has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 277 of 283 (818072)
08-23-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Tangle
08-23-2017 1:26 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

It really doesn't matter where you got it from - it's still an excuse for a failed prophecy. It's just apologetics. You can't avoid the words and the fact that this predicted second coming hasn't happened not only shortly after his death - which all at the time thought was the message - but still hasn't happened 2,000 years later.

It was fulfilled in 70AD.

You are like Faith deciding that if you aren't a believer in a straight forward 21st century reading of the Bible it isn't true Christianity. Interestingly enough, my Christian belief is most consistent with the Church of England.

My main influences have all been Church of England. (N T Wright, C S Lewis and John Polkinghorne.) I would have thought that would be the church that you would be most familiar with.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Tangle, posted 08-23-2017 1:26 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 08-23-2017 6:16 PM GDR has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 278 of 283 (818115)
08-23-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by GDR
08-22-2017 3:10 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

I didn't bring up Occam but in response it is my opinion that the simpler explanation of a single intelligence is simpler that a virtually infinite number of instances of random chance.


You're misunderstanding Occam. You can't count every chemical process as an individual complication and then count God as only one. God would have to be infinitely more complex than the sum total of chemical processes.

You're also misunderstanding chemistry. Those processes are not random.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by GDR, posted 08-22-2017 3:10 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 10:17 PM ringo has responded

Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 279 of 283 (818128)
08-23-2017 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by GDR
08-23-2017 11:03 AM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:

It was fulfilled in 70AD.

Except that people appeared not to notice the stars falling, the sun darkening and the end of the world that were supposed to follow the destruction of the temple. It was all of a piece. And if you want to be hyper-critical the temple still has 'one stone upon another'. But it doesn't matter, you'll have apologetics for that too. Christians are able to flex their interpretations to suit the mood and fashions of their times.

My main influences have all been Church of England. (N T Wright, C S Lewis and John Polkinghorne.) I would have thought that would be the church that you would be most familiar with.

I am very familiar with it. You think there is unanimity within it?! The Church of England is almost benign, being neutered by the reformation then the enlightenment. It's now mostly a liberal mush and much better for it. My mother was CofE - believed in heaven but not hell or the devil. Didn't suit her to believe that bit.

But it's ok, you can have a personal belief in the CofE - no one is going to burn you for it these days.

I'm pretty convinced that the last leader of the CofE didn't actually believe in god - at least not in the way his church teaches it and trains its priests to teach it. I had him as a born again secular humanist.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 11:03 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 10:14 PM Tangle has responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 280 of 283 (818131)
08-23-2017 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Tangle
08-23-2017 6:16 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
Tangle writes:

Except that people appeared not to notice the stars falling, the sun darkening and the end of the world that were supposed to follow the destruction of the temple. It was all of a piece.

It's hyperbole. For the 3rd or 4th time when we say it's raining cats and dogs we don't mean it to be taken literally.

Tangle writes:

And if you want to be hyper-critical the temple still has 'one stone upon another'.

Jesus wasn't coming up with supernatural knowledge of what was going to happen but with the knowledge of knowing what the Romans would do in the event of a revolution.

Tangle writes:

But it's ok, you can have a personal belief in the CofE - no one is going to burn you for it these days.

My belief is in a resurrected Jesus who perfectly embodied the word and wisdom of God.

Tangle writes:

I'm pretty convinced that the last leader of the CofE didn't actually believe in god - at least not in the way his church teaches it and trains its priests to teach it. I had him as a born again secular humanist.

Well he did and very much so. Here is a quote from one talk that he gave on the resurrection. I'll provide a link at the end. Incidentally I met the current Archbishop of Canterbury this spring on a trip to Israel.

quote:
In the first of these sessions I am going to reflect on the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, on what it actually means for people in the New Testament era to say they believe Jesus is risen from the dead; and also to say a few words about the foundation of that belief, the historical foundation of resurrection belief. And then later today I shall be reflecting a bit on what it means to preach that message in our contemporary society.

So, let us begin with the resurrection in the New Testament, and with the question of what the claim that Jesus is risen from the dead is meant to say. I am going to talk about four aspects of this, and I begin with Acts 2 and with St Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost to the crowds. Whether or not this is exactly what St Peter said on the day of Pentecost, we don't know, but, as many scholars have suggested, what we're dealing with here is a very early stratum of Christian preaching. This is the sort of thing, at the very least, that people were saying. And it's particularly striking that St Peter begins with a quotation from the prophecy of Joel, about the last days. This is what's going to happen in the last days: the Lord's spirit will be poured out on the earth. If you're wondering why the apostles are behaving so strangely on Pentecost, it's because the last days have arrived. How and why have they arrived? Because of the life and death, and resurrection of Jesus. And that, I would suggest, is the starting point.

Believing in the resurrection is believing that the new age has been inaugurated, the new world has begun. And that new world is, as you might put it, the final phase of the history of God's relation with his people. So to say 'Jesus is risen', is to say that we have now entered on the last days, on the final decisive phase of God's interaction with Israel and through Israel, with the whole world.

Those of you who know the Bishop of Durham's [Bishop Tom Wright's] wonderful book on the resurrection will know how very clearly he's spelled out the mistakes people have sometimes made in reading New Testament texts. The end of the world, for people in Jesus' day, didn't mean quite what placard-wearing people on street corners might now mean by it, nor indeed what a great many American fundamentalists seem to mean by it. The end of the world meant that God was establishing this final phase of his action; God had brought in a new age, but a new age that was still historical and earthly. It opened out onto eternity, but it represented in itself a great transition from the old to the new. And so if the resurrection of Jesus means the last days have begun, that also means that after the resurrection there's never going to be any new framework, any different way of seeing God in the world. This is it. God and the world are now, you might say, settled in the full and final shape of their relationship. The decisive difference has been made. The end has begun. The kingdom has come. Jesus has advanced out of mere history into God's future. Jesus inhabits God's future fully, so that we who are drawn to be with Jesus in his resurrection are there with him in the future which has already been inaugurated, so that that in itself opens out onto the perspectives that St Paul more than once mentions, of how the Holy Spirit given to us is the foretaste or the down-payment of God's future, the age to come. And so, since this is the beginning of the last phase of human history, since the resurrection of Jesus has made the decisive difference, there's also a sense in which the destinies of all human beings are now bound up with Jesus. From now on, every human being finds who they are, who they may be, where they will be, in relation with the figure of Jesus. The future is in his hand and his resurrection gives him that authority. It's described again very clearly in Acts 17 in Paul's sermon in Athens: 'He has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all by raising him from the dead.' Once again, the resurrection, the future, the judgement, God's decisive fixing of his relationship with the world is all connected with Jesus and with Jesus' resurrection.

So there is what I believe to be the bottom line in belief in the New Testament about the resurrection. It is a belief that history has changed and that we are in the new phase. Now, as I have already indicated, that establishes (and here's my second point) that in this new and final phase of human history there is one and only one ultimate authority in the universe that we know: and that is Jesus. He has been set free from all that holds back the growth of humanity towards God. He has been set free from the consequences of sin in the world, from the corruption, the downward spiral, of human history. He has been set free from death. He is alive, and there is nothing now that limits his action, his liberty. 'Christ, once raised from the dead is never going to die again', says St Paul in Romans 6. And likewise in I Corinthians 15we see how the resurrection is connected with that freedom and authority of Jesus, all things are given into his hands.


Rowan Williams


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Tangle, posted 08-23-2017 6:16 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Tangle, posted 08-24-2017 2:55 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 281 of 283 (818132)
08-23-2017 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
08-23-2017 3:26 PM


Re: Why do you care?
ringo writes:

You're misunderstanding Occam. You can't count every chemical process as an individual complication and then count God as only one. God would have to be infinitely more complex than the sum total of chemical processes.
You're also misunderstanding chemistry. Those processes are not random.


It isn't the processes that are necessarily random, although in many cases they are, but the reasons the processes exist in the first place. Is it random chance or intelligence?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ringo, posted 08-23-2017 3:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by ringo, posted 08-24-2017 11:46 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 282 of 283 (818136)
08-24-2017 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by GDR
08-23-2017 10:14 PM


Re: The Problem Of Evil
GDR writes:

It's hyperbole. For the 3rd or 4th time when we say it's raining cats and dogs we don't mean it to be taken literally.

Hyperbole my arse. This isn't a one liner that you could dismiss as exageration, it's a repeated and detailed claim made by several writers found throughout the bible. It's a prediction.

Williams is a lovely, clever man, but he's just making stuff up to suit his beliefs. If you listen to him not in preacher-mode you realise that there's a hair's breadth between his beliefs and a secular humanist, he just has to justify them with all this apologetic blather. (Occam again.)

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: so ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.”
–Mark 13:24-29 (KJV)

Matthew 24:30 “all the tribes of the earth” will be able to see the Son of Man’s coming in the clouds The destruction of the temple is a sign of the second coming and the end of the world

“And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
–Matthew 24:1-3 (KJV)

“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.”
–Luke 21:28-31 (KJV)

“And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.”
–Mark 9:1 (KJV)

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
–Matthew 16:28 (KJV)

“What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.”
–1 Corinthians 7:29-31 (NIV)

“According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, we who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.”
–1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NIV)

“For in just a very little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”
–Hebrews 10:37 (NIV)

“You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!”
–James 5:8-9 (NIV)

“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.”
–1 Peter 4:7 (KJV)

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.”
–1 John 2:18 (KJV)

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass…. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”
–Revelation 1:1,3 (KJV)

“Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.'”
–John 21:22 (NIV)

“When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
–Matthew 10:23 (NIV)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 10:14 PM GDR has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 283 of 283 (818158)
08-24-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by GDR
08-23-2017 10:17 PM


Re: Why do you care?
GDR writes:

It isn't the processes that are necessarily random, although in many cases they are, but the reasons the processes exist in the first place. Is it random chance or intelligence?


You're trying to add a complex reason instead of a simple one. That contradicts Occam.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by GDR, posted 08-23-2017 10:17 PM GDR has not yet responded

RewPrev1
...
1415161718
19
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017