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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 554 of 908 (817692)
08-19-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by Faith
08-19-2017 11:08 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
I don't care about the difference between a puma and a panther. It's a side issue.
The issue on which I commented was how many basic fundamental errors you make in your posts.
Making a lot of obvious mistakes casts doubt on everything else one says--at least in the sciences.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:14 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 557 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 11:15 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 584 of 908 (817742)
08-19-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 1:20 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
none of that is showing that new kinds come into existence...
It might be helpful if you didn't use "kinds" as that is a religious term with no scientific definition or application.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:20 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:56 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 586 of 908 (817746)
08-19-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 1:56 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
From post 396:
Outline of Biblical Usage:
kind, sometimes a species (usually of animals)
Groups of living organisms belong in the samecreated "kind" if they have descended from the same ancestral genepool. This does not preclude new species because this represents apartitioning of the original gene pool. Information is lost orconservednot gained. A new species could arise when apopulation is isolated and inbreeding occurs. By this definition anew species is not a new "kind" but a further partitioning of anexisting "kind".
Ah, so modern humans and chimps are in the same "kind" then. Got it!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:56 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 11:41 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 609 of 908 (817799)
08-20-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by DOCJ
08-20-2017 11:41 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
You can't have it both ways. If your definition includes:
"Groups of living organisms belong in the samecreated "kind" if they have descended from the same ancestral genepool."
Then all of the primates are of the same "kind."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 11:41 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 12:50 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 611 of 908 (817801)
08-20-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by DOCJ
08-20-2017 12:50 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
If you follow your definition, all primates are of the same kind.
(That's one of the problems with creation "science." There is no internal consistency--things get changed and stretched to conform to scripture no matter what the evidence shows.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 12:50 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 12:58 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 613 of 908 (817803)
08-20-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by DOCJ
08-20-2017 12:58 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Disagree all you want--you presented a definition of "kind" which, if followed, includes all primates within the same kind. If you don't like that, get a better definition.
But the problem is you need a definition that will fit scripture, have few "kinds" on the ark (to avoid overcrowding), and will accommodate the massive speciation since the end of the flood around 4350 years ago.
And yes, there is only one science. Creation "science" is a fraud designed to get around a Supreme Court decision and fool a few school boards. In practice it is the exact opposite of real science as it must conform to scripture no matter what, while real science follows the evidence where it leads and often shows scripture to be wrong.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 12:58 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by DOCJ, posted 08-20-2017 2:03 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 622 of 908 (817864)
08-21-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 9:50 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
and looking at dead things is not observing esp since you do not get real dead things.
Hmmm. Better not try and tell that to forensic anthropologists.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 9:50 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 10:23 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 624 of 908 (817866)
08-21-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 10:23 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Ref fossils not corpses. And I took that out of my post as I knew it would be spun incorrectly.
Still wrong. We can indeed read the distant past just as forensic anthropologists read the more recent past.
You probably aren't aware, but a lot of forensic anthropology deals with bones, as a corpse left out in the open is mostly bones within a few months depending on conditions.
Once you are at the bones stage, there is little difference between that and analyzing fossils.
You are parroting creationists' silly ideas about separating science into two parts because a lot of science disproves religious claims.
(By the way, I do consulting for local coroners on bones, and half my Ph.D. work was in the field of fossil man so don't try and tell me that my field of science isn't valid.)
[Preachers are always complaining that scientists are playing God, but all too often, their confusion is the result of preachers playing scientist--The Sensuous Curmudgeon.]

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 10:23 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 10:59 AM Coyote has replied
 Message 627 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 11:13 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 626 of 908 (817868)
08-21-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 10:59 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Ok. Provide evidence.
The evidence is in university libraries, and takes up several floors in most cases. It is also in museums and other similar places.
Unfortunately, most creationists avoid these places and avoid examining the evidence as much as vampires avoid garlic.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 10:59 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 11:57 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 628 of 908 (817870)
08-21-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 627 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 11:13 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
I completely support anthropology. However nothing discovered has disproven the bible.
Archaeology has disproved the idea of a global flood during historic times. This is not the appropriate thread for that topic, but I've presented evidence, as have a number of other posters, in other threads.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 11:13 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 11:52 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 636 of 908 (817882)
08-21-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 633 by DOCJ
08-21-2017 11:57 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
A link for DOCJ:
Message 3

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 633 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 11:57 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by DOCJ, posted 08-21-2017 8:55 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 664 of 908 (817928)
08-21-2017 4:55 PM


Faith, what you would have us believe is that there is less genetic diversity in each and all of the species on the right of this chart than there was in the original ancestral primate population.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 6:22 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 668 of 908 (817933)
08-21-2017 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Faith
08-21-2017 6:22 PM


It's hard to read your white chart.
Sorry about the chart, but I was looking for one with a large range of species descended from original primates, and that's what I could find.
But from what you said my answer is that there should be less genetic diversity down any evolved line from the first population in the line...
But that's the key to what we have been discussing here--other than a belief in a mythical "fall" there is no reason to assume that there would be less genetic diversity in any particular line than in the original primate group. The genetic diversity within a particular modern species could be more, the same, or less than the original primate group. This depends on a lot of different factors.
...and of course humans are not primates, they are humans so there is no evolved line in that case to think about, only in a numan line from the ark to the present or any known level of genetic diversity in any population in an evolving line to the present.
That is a religious belief not supported by the evidence.
keeping in mind that added genetic diversity from gene flow of any kind including mutations will change the percentages.
Yes! Of course! That is what we have been trying to convey all along.
And in this chart, the broad spectrum of different modern species will have far greater diversity than the single original primate species. That greater diversity came from gene flow, mutations, and all the rest. Further, that greater diversity was not present in the original primate species.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Faith, posted 08-21-2017 6:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by Faith, posted 08-22-2017 12:04 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 744 of 908 (818092)
08-23-2017 12:39 PM


Things simplified
Faith, I found a chart that may be easier on your eyes:
This chart tracks primate evolution from an early mammalian ancestor to modern species.
Your argument is that there has to be a loss of genetic diversity during this entire process.
The evidence shows that the modern species as a group contain a lot more genetic diversity than the original mammalian ancestor.
That extra diversity had to come from mutations.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 844 of 908 (818285)
08-26-2017 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 826 by Faith
08-25-2017 4:28 PM


Re: What Really Happens
My theory is SO elegant, so consistent, so fine, and SO unappreciated, alas.
It is unappreciated because it is wrong.
And it is not a theory! A theory is the single best explanation for a given set of facts, is supported by all relevant facts, is contradicted by no relevant facts, and makes successful predictions.
Your hypothesis fails on all accounts. But because it is actually a belief rather than a real hypothesis, and because it is based on belief rather than evidence, you will never accept anything to the contrary.
These threads and your own statements show that this is the case.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 826 by Faith, posted 08-25-2017 4:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
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