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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 886 of 893 (818451)
08-28-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by Taq
08-28-2017 4:16 PM


Re: Modern dog breeds required mutations
I've come across mentions of mutations in dog breeds several times. Looking for them just now I turned up a couple.
This article describes mutations that cause disease:

DOG DISEASE MAPPING PROJECT (DOGDNA)

And this article describes a study that thinks they've identified the mutation behind smooshed-faced dogs:

Study Identifies the Likely Genetic Mutation Responsible for Smooshed-Faced Dogs

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Taq, posted 08-28-2017 4:16 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 887 of 893 (818453)
08-28-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 879 by Faith
08-28-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Sumry uv Sum uv thuh evdince agin thuh ToE
Faith writes:

This is an insulting post so I'm ignoring it.

It was not an insulting post. Taq only corrected your errors, and apparently you find this insulting. Seems like there's a simple solution: accept the corrections and incorporate them into future posts. Problem solved.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 879 by Faith, posted 08-28-2017 1:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
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Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 888 of 893 (818506)
08-29-2017 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 874 by Percy
08-27-2017 2:51 PM


Re: Sumry uv Sum uv thuh evdince agin thuh ToE
Genetically driven adaptation? How would that work, pray tell?

Been explained many times. Phenotypic changes occur as a result of random new gene frequencies. Lizards get big heads and jaws just from such random changes accumulating in their new population. The food doesn't drive the change, but the change causes the lizards to gravitate to food that their new jaws can handle. The test of the theory would be whether the kind of food their parent population ate is also available on their new island; and it most likely is because when they first landed there they were identical to the lizards of the parent population; it would have taken some generations for the new head and jaws and digestive system to emerge.

As I read further in your insulting unintelligent post I realize that if you'd bothered to follow anything I've been arguing at length on this subject you wouldn't have all the silly objections and questions you have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 874 by Percy, posted 08-27-2017 2:51 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 890 by PaulK, posted 08-30-2017 12:12 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 891 by Percy, posted 08-30-2017 8:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26273
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 889 of 893 (818508)
08-29-2017 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 885 by Taq
08-28-2017 4:16 PM


Re: Modern dog breeds required mutations
The fact that some traits are caused by mutations proves what exactly?

Faith writes:

I'm not ignorant of the idea that mutations are the source of genetic variability, I just think it's utterly screamingly ridiculous given their record of producing thousands of genetic diseases, and besides it's absolutely unnecessary given the elegant original design of DNA

The very rare mutation in a dog breed proves what again? Nothing that contradicts what I wrote above. In fact the mutants are contrasted with "wild alleles" which must refer to the originals I'm talking about. Of course a mutation would do something like cause a "smooshed" face which is basically a destructive effect even if silly people like it. Smooshed-face dogs have a hard time breathing, it's not a desirable condition. And I do suspect that some mutations are really the chemical reconstruction of a former lost allele, maybe that became junk DNA. Alleles are, after all, just a string of chemical codes, there could be some principle by which they recur from time to time. Which doesn't change the fact that the vast majority aren't beneficial.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 885 by Taq, posted 08-28-2017 4:16 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 892 by Percy, posted 08-30-2017 8:24 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 893 by Taq, posted 08-30-2017 10:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13110
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 890 of 893 (818519)
08-30-2017 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 888 by Faith
08-29-2017 10:14 PM


Re: Sumry uv Sum uv thuh evdince agin thuh ToE
quote:

Been explained many times. Phenotypic changes occur as a result of random new gene frequencies. Lizards get big heads and jaws just from such random changes accumulating in their new population. The food doesn't drive the change, but the change causes the lizards to gravitate to food that their new jaws can handle

In other words you are misusing the terminology again and expect us to guess what you mean. Please stop that since it hardly helps honest discussion.

However, you are very likely wrong. The big heads alone might be just good luck - but the changes in head shape and the cecal valve as well would be an unlikely coincidence.

quote:

As I read further in your insulting unintelligent post I realize that if you'd bothered to follow anything I've been arguing at length on this subject you wouldn't have all the silly objections and questions you have.

And that IS pure insult, especially as it is obviously untrue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Faith, posted 08-29-2017 10:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 891 of 893 (818538)
08-30-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 888 by Faith
08-29-2017 10:14 PM


Re: Sumry uv Sum uv thuh evdince agin thuh ToE
Faith writes:

Phenotypic changes occur as a result of random new gene frequencies. Lizards get big heads and jaws just from such random changes accumulating in their new population.

The quality of larger heads and jaws would only increase in a population if it were selected for by the environment.

What's actually true is that every population contains inherent variation. The particular set of variations contained in the founder population have a big influence on future directions of evolution. Those qualities best adapted to the environment are selected for and become more common and more emphasized in following generations. Mutations can assist in this process.

Why are you ignoring selection? You go on and on about breeding being a model for evolution, and breeding is all about selection. Selection controls which genes gets passed on to the next generation, not genetics.

The food doesn't drive the change, but the change causes the lizards to gravitate to food that their new jaws can handle.

But variation comes first, not change. Selection chooses among that variation according to fitness, according to which is best adapted. Those selected to reproduce get to pass their genes on to the next generation.

Every population contains variation. For your lizards, some have bigger heads, some smaller. Some have bigger jaws, some smaller. Some have bigger feet, some smaller. Some have longer tails, some shorter. Some have sharper teeth, some duller. Some are faster, some slower. Those qualities providing the best adaptation to the environment are most likely to become passed on to the next generation. And again, mutations can assist in this process. Over longer time periods and greater environmental change, mutations are essential.

The test of the theory would be whether the kind of food their parent population ate is also available on their new island;

That's not a test of your theory. If the food source requiring larger heads and jaws existed on both islands, then by your idea both islands should get lizards with larger heads and jaws.

...and it most likely is because when they first landed there they were identical to the lizards of the parent population; it would have taken some generations for the new head and jaws and digestive system to emerge.

Again, if the food sources between the two islands were the same, the lizards on the two islands would be the same.

What really happened is that Pod Mrcaru had a new and plentiful food source in the form of plants (as opposed to the primary food source of insects on Pod Kapisto), so the lizards adapted to that food source.

As I read further in your insulting unintelligent post I realize that if you'd bothered to follow anything I've been arguing at length on this subject you wouldn't have all the silly objections and questions you have.

And yet even for the single point you chose to rebut among all my points, you couldn't even get that right. The changes in the lizards on Pod Mrcaru resulted from selection, not genetically driven adaptation.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 888 by Faith, posted 08-29-2017 10:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 892 of 893 (818540)
08-30-2017 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by Faith
08-29-2017 10:24 PM


Re: Modern dog breeds required mutations
Faith writes:

The fact that some traits are caused by mutations proves what exactly?

Well, this sentence by itself proves that you've finally conceded you were wrong that mutations don't exist, and later that you were wrong that they played no positive role.

Mutations are not only the source of some traits of relatively recent occurrence, ultimately they're the source of all alleles everywhere. There must be few if any alleles in any life anywhere that have survived in their original form from billions of years ago.

I just think it's utterly screamingly ridiculous given their record of producing thousands of genetic diseases,...

Deleterious mutations are selected against and are removed from the population. Mildly deleterious to neutral mutations propagate through drift. Beneficial mutations are selected for and can spread rapidly through a population.

...and besides it's absolutely unnecessary given the elegant original design of DNA

There is no evidence that the "original design of DNA" was any more elegant than the DNA of today. Evidence from ancient DNA tells us that DNA then was pretty much like DNA today.

And I do suspect that some mutations are really the chemical reconstruction of a former lost allele,...

It would be possible for mutation to bring back an allele that was resident in the population in the past and then lost.

Alleles are, after all, just a string of chemical codes, there could be some principle by which they recur from time to time.

The word you're looking for is "mutation."

Which doesn't change the fact that the vast majority aren't beneficial.

But deleterious mutations are removed while beneficial mutations are kept. What happens over time to the fitness of a population that rejects deleterious mutations while keeping beneficial ones?

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Faith, posted 08-29-2017 10:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 893 of 893 (818557)
08-30-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 889 by Faith
08-29-2017 10:24 PM


Re: Modern dog breeds required mutations
Faith writes:

The fact that some traits are caused by mutations proves what exactly?

It proves that even in your model organism there are mutations that keep evolution going at a point where you claim evolution should stop. Your argument has been refuted.

And I do suspect that some mutations are really the chemical reconstruction of a former lost allele, maybe that became junk DNA.

That is just a fantasy, backed by zero evidence. Do you really think that making stuff up on the fly is a valid argument?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 889 by Faith, posted 08-29-2017 10:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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