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Author | Topic: Decline And Fall Of The American Empire | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Websters writes: Im guessing that #2 is the one we are discussing.
1 the monetary worth of something : market price 2 a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged 3 relative worth, utility, or importance a good value at the price the value of base stealing in baseball had nothing of value to say 4 something (such as a principle or quality) intrinsically valuable or desirablesought material values instead of human values W. H. Jones 5 a numerical quantity that is assigned or is determined by calculation or measurement let x take on positive values a value for the age of the earth
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Stop looking stuff up. Think instead. What is "the total value of goods produced and services provided in a country during one year. "? Who produced the value?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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Human Labor.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Human Labor. Spoken like a true member of the proletariat. Imagine that you have a warehouse of shiny widgets with no sales force, no and no advertising and marketing department. What is that stuff in the warehouse worth? Is it more or less than the equivalent weight of boat anchors or scrap metal? Let's say that the stuff in the warehouse is selling, but some engineer discovers that it can be used to cure cancer. Is the stuff in the warehouse more valuable despite the fact that labor did nothing more to add value? Who is entitled to that new value? And yet, without labor, there is no product, no value to try to market, increase or enhance. These questions are stuff that folks on either side of the question sometimes gloss over. There is no universally fair way to assess the contribution of any worker or capitalist, even if all a given laborer does is polish the tables in the show room. If he frees up a more expensive employee, why isn't he worth some of the benefit from doing that? And of course, the answer is because the employer uses a different system to evaluate what a laborer is worth. Probably akin to "how little can I pay this guy and still get him or somebody like him to walk in the door each day." On the other hand, the idea that labor creates all value is clearly bogus. Folks who take risks, and who lose money when things do not work out are folks who do contribute to value. One might reasonably question how the money should be divided up. But when the answer is "it's all mine and you get what I decide you should have", then the argument leading to that is suspect. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Human labor is part of it.
What are some of the other parts?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
The factories that produce the goods, as well as the raw materials that become the goods themselves.
Or...the services offered, such as barbers, bakers, butchers, etc.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
and?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
im thinking.....what about the ones who buy our products? What value do they give us for them?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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So the GDP is created by the workers, the bankers, the investors the overseas buyers...
What about the parents and grandparents that stay home and watch kids? What about the teachers? How about the kids still in school learning how to be productive adults? What about the folk that served in our military but are now out and suffering from physical or mental wounds? How about the illegal migrants that come to plant and harvest the food that is produced? Do those people also contribute to the creation of the Gross Domestic Product?
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
Isn't the money they risk also the fruit of human labor?
On the other hand, the idea that labor creates all value is clearly bogus. Folks who take risks, and who lose money when things do not work out are folks who do contribute to value.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Isn't the money they risk also the fruit of human labor? Not necessarily. For example, inherited lottery winnings. Or money earned via investment in the stock market, where the initial investment is a loan. Or money from the sale of property whose value is primarily accumulated via appreciation rather. A bottle of wine may have a value that increases over time just from sitting in a cellar. Some of that money may have a labor component, but that component can be dwarfed by non-labor considerations. ABE: Beyond that, I would suggest that your question is not really relevant. No matter how a first million dollars is earned, if the money can become 2 million dollars for the owner without the owner adding labor, then it is ownership of that second million dollars that serves as the source of my comments. Edited by NoNukes, : ABE Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
Where did that money come from?
For example, inherited lottery winnings. Or money earned via investment in the stock market, where the initial investment is a loan. Or money from the sale of property whose value is primarily accumulated via appreciation rather. NoNukes writes:
It only has "value" when somebody pays for it. Where does that money come from?
A bottle of wine may have a value that increases over time just from sitting in a cellar. NoNukes writes:
"Ownership" of the money is not relevant to my comments. No matter how a first million dollars is earned, if the money can become 2 million dollars for the owner without the owner adding labor, then it is ownership of that second million dollars that serves as the source of my comments. Ownership is arbitrary. Some right-wing nuts believe they "own" their money and that taxation "steals" it from them. In fact, it's society that determines who owns what. But the real "value" of something can only originate in labor, I think.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It only has "value" when somebody pays for it. Where does that money come from? You are ignoring the actual question. The question is not about the source of money, but the ownership of the profits. If the buyer has to work himself into an early grave in order to purchase the wine, then the owner of that old wine still reaps an increase with essentially no labor on his own part. Beyond that, the purchaser need not buy using the fruit of his own labor, but can be another capitalist. I don't know what I need to say to make my point any clearer. Some value is derived from sources other than labor even if labor is used to purchase that value. That is a direct exception to the general rule you asked me about. I won't try to explain this again. If you don't care about the ownership of the money then you are discussing something that has nothing to do with the point I made to Phat. I am not interested. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In fact, it's society that determines who owns what. Although an individual with a good Attorney can school society on the legalities. Society itself has no Attorney to look after their social interests.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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yes, but that isn't the whole story. I read an article in The Atlantic that talked about the GDP as an outmoded measurement.
quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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