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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 8 of 170 (818574)
08-30-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
08-30-2017 10:55 AM


quote:
If Washington is dreaming of 2040 or 2050 as the end of the American Century....
The American "Century" ended in 1963.
Edited by ringo, : fixed quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 08-30-2017 10:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 08-30-2017 4:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 11 of 170 (818579)
08-30-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
08-30-2017 4:48 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Phat writes:
The main issue, as I have tried to explain before, is that once the US Dollar is no longer the global reserve currency, we can no longer print money to pay our debts and prices on oil imports will rise exponentially.
I live in an oil-exporting province - so good. Import our oil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 08-30-2017 4:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 170 (818724)
09-01-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by NoNukes
08-31-2017 10:18 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:
On the other hand, the idea that labor creates all value is clearly bogus. Folks who take risks, and who lose money when things do not work out are folks who do contribute to value.
Isn't the money they risk also the fruit of human labor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2017 10:18 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 1:11 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 42 of 170 (818726)
09-01-2017 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by NoNukes
09-01-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:
For example, inherited lottery winnings. Or money earned via investment in the stock market, where the initial investment is a loan. Or money from the sale of property whose value is primarily accumulated via appreciation rather.
Where did that money come from?
NoNukes writes:
A bottle of wine may have a value that increases over time just from sitting in a cellar.
It only has "value" when somebody pays for it. Where does that money come from?
NoNukes writes:
No matter how a first million dollars is earned, if the money can become 2 million dollars for the owner without the owner adding labor, then it is ownership of that second million dollars that serves as the source of my comments.
"Ownership" of the money is not relevant to my comments.
Ownership is arbitrary. Some right-wing nuts believe they "own" their money and that taxation "steals" it from them. In fact, it's society that determines who owns what.
But the real "value" of something can only originate in labor, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 1:11 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 4:39 PM ringo has replied
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 5:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 78 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2017 4:59 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 51 of 170 (818769)
09-02-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by NoNukes
09-01-2017 4:39 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:
If the buyer has to work himself into an early grave in order to purchase the wine, then the owner of that old wine still reaps an increase with essentially no labor on his own part.
Who said it had to be labor on the part of the seller? The "value" is set by whatever the buyer is willing to pay and his money is generated by labor.
NoNukes writes:
Some value is derived from sources other than labor even if labor is used to purchase that value.
Your example is invalid. Try another one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 09-01-2017 4:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2017 11:47 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 170 (818770)
09-02-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
09-01-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
Phat writes:
Although an individual with a good Attorney can school society on the legalities. Society itself has no Attorney to look after their social interests.
The Attorney is part of society, along with the legislators and the judicial system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 09-01-2017 5:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 53 of 170 (818771)
09-02-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
09-02-2017 1:51 AM


Re: what about the least of these?
Phat writes:
I read an article in The Atlantic that talked about the GDP as an outmoded measurement.
That's the point. There is "value" that can not be measured directly in dollars and cents. The standard economic indicators don't include the indirect contributions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-02-2017 1:51 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 170 (818775)
09-02-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by NoNukes
09-02-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:
My example is just fine for the purpose of showing that labor is not the source of all income and that other components make up GDP.
Nope. The seller's income comes from the buyer, who gets it from labor.
NoNukes writes:
How about all income from interest as yet another.
Where does the money for the interest come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by NoNukes, posted 09-02-2017 11:47 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 09-04-2017 7:35 AM ringo has replied
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 09-04-2017 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 170 (819035)
09-05-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
09-04-2017 7:35 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:
In my opinion, the Fall Of The American Empire will be punctuated by a major economic event.
That depends on what you call a "major economic event". There have been several booms and busts in my lifetime that the pundits refer to as major revents - but none of them had any effect on me. I seem to be swimming upstream, doing well when the economy is bad and worse when the economy is better. It seems to me that it's all relative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 09-04-2017 7:35 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-05-2017 2:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 59 of 170 (819037)
09-05-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by NoNukes
09-04-2017 12:29 PM


Re: Bye Bye Global Reserve Currency
NoNukes writes:
Not necessarily. Buyers need not be laborers.
Even if they're not directly labourers, the money originates in labor. Jesse James didn't rob working people directly but he robbed the banks that stole the money from working people.
NoNukes writes:
The point is that the seller gets his money without his own labor.
That's not much of a point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by NoNukes, posted 09-04-2017 12:29 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 61 of 170 (819126)
09-06-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-05-2017 2:46 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:
a major economic event is when a majority of the people are directly affected.
You're defining it so broadly that it doesn't have much meaning. You said, " the Fall Of The American Empire will be punctuated by a major economic event," and now you're making it sound like every other Tuesday.
Phat writes:
Not just in having less disposable income but in having no income.
How do you propose that that would happen? Going back to the idea of labour being a source of wealth, what's to prevent me from working, even if not for money?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-05-2017 2:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 3:36 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 65 of 170 (819266)
09-08-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
09-08-2017 2:56 AM


Re: Irma will be costly
Phat writes:
In relation to this discussion, Hurricane Irma could end up being a major economic event.
It will create a lot of work rebuilding. Is that a bad thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-08-2017 2:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 12:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 69 of 170 (819734)
09-14-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
09-14-2017 3:36 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:
In order to help the economy, however...people would have to agree with each exchange of labor a common value. This isn't easy to do if I offer dandelion leaves while you have oak timber.
Why wouldn't people use dollars for exchange? There's plenty of them around even if the economists, in their infinite wisdom, decide they're worthless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 3:36 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 71 of 170 (819948)
09-15-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
09-14-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:
Because you said you could work even if not for money.
The question was about work, not pay. What would prevent me from working? Nothing. What would prevent people from paying me in any mutually-agreed-upon medium of exchange? Nothing. Whether or not the medium of exchange is "backed" by the government is relatively insignificant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 1:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 73 of 170 (819958)
09-15-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:
I could pay you in a medium of exchange agreed upon by both of us, but if you tried to buy bread with it, you would then have to agree with the baker before you could eat.
Yes. How is that an insurmountable problem?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
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