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Author Topic:   True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 61 of 154 (818731)
09-01-2017 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 2:38 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
PorknCheese writes:
ToE has collapsed under its own admissions of speculation being drawn from fossil evidence that is very fragmented.
In a revealing statement that completely exposed the theory it was admitted that Mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available
Obviously not enough data to draw factual conclusions from
Are you actually interested in understanding this subject or are you just looking for silly ways to dismiss it out of hand?
The ToE is not built on one piece of data, it's an enormous set of information and analysis compiled by thousands of scientists for over 150 years. No biologist denies the ToE. You come along with no idea at all what it involves and chuck it away in a sentence.
The mountain of evidence tells us that evoltion happened, it's not surprising that some parts of the enormous jigsaw of life that spans 3bn years is missing, the really surprising part is that we've found so much.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 2:38 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 62 of 154 (818732)
09-01-2017 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Taq
09-01-2017 3:16 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 09-01-2017 3:16 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Taq, posted 09-01-2017 4:06 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 09-01-2017 4:14 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 67 by JonF, posted 09-01-2017 4:47 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 74 by Coragyps, posted 09-01-2017 7:34 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 63 of 154 (818733)
09-01-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 2:38 PM


Porkncheese Admits He's a Creationist
POrkncheese writes:
ToE has collapsed under its own admissions of speculation being drawn from fossil evidence that is very fragmented.
In a revealing statement that completely exposed the theory it was admitted that Mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available
Well, so much for objectivity, clear thinking and careful analysis. Plus you're misquoting and distorting the information provided by Tangle in Message 51. The quote said "very fragmentary", not "very fragmented". And it was referring to the "first primate-like mammals", not mammals in general. "Mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures..." - what a hoot!
Obviously not enough data to draw factual conclusions from
The ToE doesn't depend upon on the fossil evidence for the origin of primates. What information we do have fits into the ToE framework.
I thought we'd already settled that we don't know everything, but you seem to have returned from your snow trip believing that if there's something we don't know then we don't know anything. I guess in your view cosmology is "completely exposed" since they don't know what dark matter is. And I guess you think quantum theory "has collapsed under its own admissions of speculation" since they don't know which slit a particle will pass through. And I guess you believe geology had better throw in the towel since they don't know the complete geological history of that rock in your back yard.
Have any other stunning revelations for us?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 64 of 154 (818734)
09-01-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 3:41 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Porkncheese writes:
Links to articles claiming to refute dna evidence
How do they refute the DNA evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 3:41 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 65 of 154 (818735)
09-01-2017 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 3:41 PM


Re: Porkncheese Drops the Charade, Admits He's a Creationist
From the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
In any case, the first link is to a creationist website - you dismissed creationists in your first message.
The second link is to a hodgepodge of a website. The homepage is about Home and Garden, but he's got articles about all kinds of topics, including the one you link to called DNA Evidence Debunks the Out-of-Africa Theory of Human Evolution. What on earth does debunking the "Out of Africa" hypothesis have to do with debunking the theory of evolution? The previous and next articles are completely unrelated: Black Seed Extract ‘Cures’ HIV Patient Naturally and What If Animals Could Talk to You?.
So these are the kinds of websites you think are providing you reliable information: creationist websites on the one hand, and wacky "no topic too weird" websites. Again, what a hoot!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 3:41 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 66 of 154 (818737)
09-01-2017 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 2:38 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Yep, it's the ol' "We don't know everything so we know nothing" ploy.
Some fossils are very fragmentary. Many are not. And there is a lot that can be learned from fragments.
Some details of particular stages in the evolution of particular organisms are poorly known. Some are not. Enough is known to provide one of the strongest of the many pieces of their evidence that support the ToE.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 2:38 PM Porkncheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 6:11 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 67 of 154 (818738)
09-01-2017 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 3:41 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Again, we don't argue for or against bare links. State the important parts in your own words, then use quotes and links to supply details and support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 3:41 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(2)
Message 68 of 154 (818740)
09-01-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 2:38 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
ToE has collapsed under its own admissions of speculation being drawn from fossil evidence that is very fragmented.
The theory of evolution states that populations change as a result of allele frequency changes, this can be adaptive as a result of selective forces sometimes collectively called 'natural selection'.
The theory explains the fact. The fact is that populations change over time.
Fossil evidence is used to reconstruct history. Science is used, including the theory of evolution, to help reconstruct that history. Natural history is NOT the theory of evolution. Theories are explanations. Histories are different things. Reconstructing historical events from pre-history is fraught with difficulty. But we can still use the theory of evolution to predict that life on earth is related by common ancestry and each piece of evidence we have found so far is consistent with this prediction being correct.
There is a theory of common descent, which explains exceptionally well the patterns in the fossils, biogeography and so on - allowing for predictions on what will be found where. The specific details are historical facts which are often, for obvious reasons, less certain.
Obviously not enough data to draw factual conclusions from
Which is why scientists don't draw strong conclusions from things. They may develop hypotheses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 2:38 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 268 days)
Posts: 198
From: Australia
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 69 of 154 (818741)
09-01-2017 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by JonF
09-01-2017 4:45 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Ridicule... Number 1 defence for the defenceless.
Ridiculing myself with unfounded claims that are irrelevant to the debate. Ridiculing every link I have posted to avoid addressing the points made. Its a weak defence.
I haven't personally attacked anyone despite being outnumbered by a team with a hostile attitude. I have not retreated to ridicule. I have accepted all forms of media without criticism of its source, including random pictures without reference and even pictures that have no relevance to the issue.
This was the text put to me by your team with a link.
"The first primate-like mammals, or proto-primates , evolved in the early Paleocene Epoch (65.5-55.8 million years ago) at the beginning of the Cenozoic Era. They were roughly similar to squirrels and tree shrews in size and appearance. The existing, very fragmentary fossil evidence (from Asia, Europe, North Africa, and especially Western North America) suggests that they were adapted to an arboreal way of life in warm, moist climates. They probably were equipped with relatively good eyesight as well as hands and feet adapted for climbing in trees. These primate-like mammals (Plesiadapiformes ) will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available."
I also refer to this statement from JonF
"Some details of particular stages in the evolution of particular organisms are poorly known. Some are not"
Given these statements can man accurately be traced back from 80 million years back to 6.5 billion years to ocean creatures? The way the animations depict it? With every step of evolution for every species?
The conclusion I draw from this is that we don't have enough evidence to conclude much at all before this era. Certainly not enough to track the evolution of man back to the sea.
Is that not a fair assessment given the scientific text presented and the given statement? Be honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by JonF, posted 09-01-2017 4:45 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Percy, posted 09-01-2017 6:44 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 72 by JonF, posted 09-01-2017 7:13 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 73 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-01-2017 7:33 PM Porkncheese has not replied
 Message 75 by jar, posted 09-01-2017 8:27 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 70 of 154 (818742)
09-01-2017 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 6:11 PM


Re: Porkncheese Drops the Charade, Admits He's a Creationist
Porkncheese writes:
Ridicule... Number 1 defence for the defenceless.
Ridiculing myself with unfounded claims that are irrelevant to the debate. Ridiculing every link I have posted to avoid addressing the points made. Its a weak defence.
Ridicule? By JonF in his Message 66, the message you replied to? Are you daft? There was no ridicule there, but you sure deserve some ridicule now. Get a clue, mate.
I haven't personally attacked anyone despite being outnumbered by a team with a hostile attitude.
You accused us of a campaign of hate.
I have accepted all forms of media without criticism of its source, including random pictures without reference and even pictures that have no relevance to the issue.
And managed to come away from it all without learning a thing.
Given these statements can man accurately be traced back from 80 million years back to 6.5 billion years to ocean creatures? The way the animations depict it? With every step of evolution for every species?
Wow, you sure like to move the goalposts a bit, don't you? From human evolution to primate evolution to the origin of primates to how life came from the oceans. By the way, you're going to have a bit of a problem tracing the evolution of anything "back to 6.5 billion years to ocean creatures." The Earth is only around 4.6 billion years old.
The conclusion I draw from this is that we don't have enough evidence to conclude much at all before this era. Certainly not enough to track the evolution of man back to the sea.
Rarely has no much conclusion been based on so little knowledge.
Is that not a fair assessment given the scientific text presented and the given statement? Be honest.
You're drawing conclusions about how much we know about human evolution "back to the sea" from a single paragraph that was about the origin of primates? That's idiotic. You not only know little, you have no clue how to improve your situation. Be honest.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 6:11 PM Porkncheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Coyote, posted 09-01-2017 6:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 71 of 154 (818743)
09-01-2017 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Percy
09-01-2017 6:44 PM


Re: Porkncheese Drops the Charade, Admits He's a Creationist
A creationist?
I'm shocked!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Percy, posted 09-01-2017 6:44 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 72 of 154 (818744)
09-01-2017 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 6:11 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Given these statements can man accurately be traced back from 80 million years back to 6.5 billion years to ocean creatures? The way the animations depict it? With every step of evolution for every species?
And next we have "You gotta show movies of every generation and I still won't accept it."
More ignorance, too. I already corrected you on this. Nobody can trace life back to 6.5 billion years because the Earth did not exist 6.5 billion years ago, and wouldn't come on stage for about two billion years.
Is that not a fair assessment given the scientific text presented and the given statement?
It is not.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 6:11 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 73 of 154 (818745)
09-01-2017 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 6:11 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Porky writes:
Given these statements can man accurately be traced back from 80 million years back to 6.5 billion years to ocean creatures? The way the animations depict it? With every step of evolution for every species?
Porky writes:
True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing
Well, you have succeeded in enlightening us that you know nothing.
Porky writes:
Ridicule... Number 1 defence for the defenceless.
Ridiculing myself with unfounded claims that are irrelevant to the debate. Ridiculing every link I have posted to avoid addressing the points made. Its a weak defence.
It's ridiculous.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 6:11 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 74 of 154 (818746)
09-01-2017 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 3:41 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Holy crap, Batman!!! The woo at that wake up world site is way beyond industrial strength! And those people may be based right here in Snyder, Texas!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 3:41 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 154 (818747)
09-01-2017 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 6:11 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
You have provided a perfect example of why you should never be considered or hired for any position that requires evidence based decision making, honesty or critical thinking.
In other words, a worthless loser who should be pitied and left at the kiddie table.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 6:11 PM Porkncheese has not replied

  
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