Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8790 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-24-2017 8:35 PM
346 online now:
halibut, jar, RAZD, Rrhain (4 members, 342 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Upcoming Birthdays: Tempe 12ft Chicken
Post Volume:
Total: 819,364 Year: 23,970/21,208 Month: 1,935/2,468 Week: 28/416 Day: 28/24 Hour: 3/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1011121314
15
Author Topic:   Can mutation and selection increase information?
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 211 of 222 (818672)
08-31-2017 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by jar
08-31-2017 3:11 PM


Re: Information
jar writes:

But still, no one has presented the working definition of information, how to recognize information or how to determine increase in information.


It's less than 100 years since Claude Shannon published The Mathematical Theory of Communication. A lot of work has been done on how to define information and how to measure it. I have previously given examples. This work is continuing although I suspect since information is a non material thing it might never be possible to define and measure it exactly.

But we can all recognise information in everyday life, and distinguish different kinds of information and whether there is an increase or not. e.g. Hollandaise Sauce.

We could look it up in a dictionary and get some information. We can read a recipe and get more information. We can taste it and get more information. We now know what it is, how to make it, and what it tastes like. We know that we have acquired and increased information; we can qualitatively say we have more information even if we can't quantitatively say how much.

Claude Shannon no more had the last word on information than Charles Darwin did on evolution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by jar, posted 08-31-2017 3:11 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Percy, posted 08-31-2017 8:46 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 214 by JonF, posted 08-31-2017 8:51 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 215 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2017 3:38 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 216 by Taq, posted 09-01-2017 11:03 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 217 by Pressie, posted 09-04-2017 5:30 AM CRR has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 212 of 222 (818675)
08-31-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by CRR
08-31-2017 7:24 PM


Re: Information
CRR writes:

You're still confusing Shannon Information with Information.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information
Information is that which informs, so it will have meaning.

No, you're still confusing information with meaning. That's why you have no way of measuring information and why all your statements about gain and loss of information are nonsense.

Let me repeat this simple question. If you know how to measure information, then tell us how much information there is in a simple genome of 4 genes with this many alleles:

  • Gene 1: 4 alleles
  • Gene 2: 1 allele
  • Gene 3: 2 alleles
  • Gene 4: 3 alleles

The last time I asked this question you responded with a non sequitur reference to a paper on protein functional sequence complexity. The paper is suspect anyway because it equates meaning with function. That's very strange. Oh, I just looked Durston up - intelligent design advocate and head of Power to Change Ministries.

But if you think Durston is on to something then just answer the question: How much information is in that simple genome?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 7:24 PM CRR has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 213 of 222 (818676)
08-31-2017 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by CRR
08-31-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Information
CRR writes:

This work is continuing although I suspect since information is a non material thing it might never be possible to define and measure it exactly.

Yeah, like statistics and percentages and other non-material things. We'll never be able to define and measure them exactly.

Claude Shannon no more had the last word on information than Charles Darwin did on evolution.

You finally said something true, but you're still unable to describe how to measure the amount of information in a genome.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 8:25 PM CRR has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 3962
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 214 of 222 (818677)
08-31-2017 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by CRR
08-31-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Information
But we can all recognise information in everyday life ... and whether there is an increase or not...

Um, well, no. In some circumstances we can, in most of the circumstances of interest in this thread we cannot. You've certainly demonstrated your inability to detect changes in information in biological systems and your inability to objectively discern the direction of the change.

Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 8:25 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5069
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 215 of 222 (818695)
09-01-2017 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by CRR
08-31-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Information
CRR writes:

But we can all recognise information in everyday life, and distinguish different kinds of information and whether there is an increase or not. e.g. Hollandaise Sauce.

Are you sure?

Cap.

Add a letter:

Cape.

Add a letter:

Caper.

Has information increased? Or are these words just different?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 8:25 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(5)
Message 216 of 222 (818717)
09-01-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by CRR
08-31-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Information
CRR writes:

We could look it up in a dictionary and get some information. We can read a recipe and get more information. We can taste it and get more information. We now know what it is, how to make it, and what it tastes like. We know that we have acquired and increased information; we can qualitatively say we have more information even if we can't quantitatively say how much.

The problem is that none of this is relevant to biology. The cell doesn't read DNA like a recipe in order to make proteins. DNA isn't an abstract written language like human languages. DNA contains physical information like all other molecules. DNA contains the information for a cell in the same way that oxygen and hydrogen contain the information for water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 8:25 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1771
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 217 of 222 (818897)
09-04-2017 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by CRR
08-31-2017 8:25 PM


Re: Information
This one is funny.

CRR writes:

We could look it up in a dictionary and get some information. We can read a recipe and get more information. We can taste it and get more information. We now know what it is, how to make it, and what it tastes like. We know that we have acquired and increased information; we can qualitatively say we have more information even if we can't quantitatively say how much.

For some people food made by that same recipe can taste like shite. No new information. You're mixing up the words "meaning" and "information". They're not the same.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by CRR, posted 08-31-2017 8:25 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by CRR, posted 09-04-2017 8:27 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 218 of 222 (818980)
09-04-2017 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Pressie
09-04-2017 5:30 AM


Re: Information
Two people can taste food from the same bowl and one like it while the other won't. However now each know more about the flavour than if they had just looked at it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Pressie, posted 09-04-2017 5:30 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 219 of 222 (818981)
09-04-2017 8:37 PM


Biological Information
Biological Information — What is It?
Werner Gitt, Robert Compton, and Jorge Fernandez

quote:
But what do we mean by the term “biological information”? We suggest that, at present, it cannot be unambiguously defined.

quote:
This leads us to ask the more general question: What precisely is information? Anyone who has studied this field is aware of three working definitions of
information:
• Classical Information Theory: Shannon (statistical) information [3]; dealing solely with the technical/engineering aspects of communication. This involves analyses including obtaining statistics on the material symbols for data transmission, storage and processing.
• Algorithmic Information Theory: Solomonoff/Kolmogorov/Chaitin [4–6]; dealing with the ‘complexity’ (as this term is defined in the theory) of material symbols in data structures and of objects in general.
• Complex Specified Information (CSI) Theory: Dembski [7]; roughly the same as Classical Information Theory but adding the important concept of a ‘specification’.

quote:
With the combination of abstract code and syntax we are able to generate more complex language structures such as words and sentences. However, at this (formal language) stage meaning plays no role. It was at this level only that Shannon developed his Theory of Communication [3] into the highly useful statistical analyses of the material symbols, solely for the technical purposes of data transmission, storage and processing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Coyote, posted 09-04-2017 8:44 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 221 by Percy, posted 09-05-2017 9:27 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 222 by Taq, posted 09-05-2017 11:10 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member
Posts: 5989
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 220 of 222 (818982)
09-04-2017 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by CRR
09-04-2017 8:37 PM


Re: Biological Information
You left off the link:

http://www.worldscientific.com/...10.1142/9789814508728_0001


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by CRR, posted 09-04-2017 8:37 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15917
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 221 of 222 (819019)
09-05-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by CRR
09-04-2017 8:37 PM


Re: Biological Information
CRR writes:

Biological Information — What is It?
Werner Gitt, Robert Compton, and Jorge Fernandez

quote:
But what do we mean by the term “biological information”? We suggest that, at present, it cannot be unambiguously defined.

Yes, Gitt is correct, he doesn't have the ability to define, let alone measure, what he calls "biological information". That's because he confused information with meaning, and we have no way of measuring meaning.

This also means that all your claims of increasing and decreasing biological information are nonsense. You can't measure it, therefore you can't know when it increases or decreases.

quote:
This leads us to ask the more general question: What precisely is information? Anyone who has studied this field is aware of three working definitions of
information:
• Classical Information Theory: Shannon (statistical) information [3]; dealing solely with the technical/engineering aspects of communication. This involves analyses including obtaining statistics on the material symbols for data transmission, storage and processing.
• Algorithmic Information Theory: Solomonoff/Kolmogorov/Chaitin [4–6]; dealing with the ‘complexity’ (as this term is defined in the theory) of material symbols in data structures and of objects in general.

This latter is derivative of the former.

quote:
• Complex Specified Information (CSI) Theory: Dembski [7]; roughly the same as Classical Information Theory but adding the important concept of a ‘specification’.

CSI is made up.

quote:
With the combination of abstract code and syntax we are able to generate more complex language structures such as words and sentences. However, at this (formal language) stage meaning plays no role. It was at this level only that Shannon developed his Theory of Communication [3] into the highly useful statistical analyses of the material symbols, solely for the technical purposes of data transmission, storage and processing.

Give that last phrase a closer look: "data transmission, storage and processing." That's pretty much everything DNA does. The information in DNA can be measured and quantified. The made-up stuff that you're talking about cannot.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by CRR, posted 09-04-2017 8:37 PM CRR has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7141
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 222 of 222 (819028)
09-05-2017 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by CRR
09-04-2017 8:37 PM


Re: Biological Information
CRR writes:

Biological Information — What is It?
Werner Gitt, Robert Compton, and Jorge Fernandez

So how do you use those sources to determine how much information a DNA molecule contains, and if that information content is increased or decreased by a mutation?

Until you can answer that question, those definitions are meaningless.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by CRR, posted 09-04-2017 8:37 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1011121314
15
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017