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Author | Topic: Decline And Fall Of The American Empire | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
a major economic event is when a majority of the people are directly affected. Not just in having less disposable income but in having no income.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In relation to this discussion, Hurricane Irma could end up being a major economic event. Estimates of the costs associated with it are upwards of 100-300 billion dollars!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I would say $20,000.00 for new ones, $8000.00 for used ones.
Just a guessChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Going back to the idea of labour being a source of wealth, what's to prevent me from working, even if not for money? You could work...bartering is a form of economic trade. In order to help the economy, however...people would have to agree with each exchange of labor a common value. This isn't easy to do if I offer dandelion leaves while you have oak timber.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Because you said you could work even if not for money.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I could pay you in a medium of exchange agreed upon by both of us, but if you tried to buy bread with it, you would then have to agree with the baker before you could eat.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How is that an insurmountable problem? Because what if the baker cant come to an agreement with the farmer? Everyone has to agree on a means of value before the economy starts to work.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
True, although different types of labor receive different rewards. The miners are hired to operate the machines and extract the natural resource. They receive a paycheck. The trucks are driven and haul the raw material to be crushed and sifted. The labor at the plant extracts the raw material from the rock. They get paid. But the real "value" of something can only originate in labor, I think.Then, the precious metal (as an example of the natural resource) gets made into jewelry and sold. The seller receives a commission and the buyer pays up. We are discussing several hundred paychecks. Which labor among them should receive the ultimate value of the sold product? Realistically, which labor does receive the most? we in the grocery store who do most of the work hauling the product to the shelves, engaging in pleasant dialogue with the customers, and serving them meat, deli, bakery and Starbucks are the direct point of sale between the consumer and the business...so we believe we earn a chunk of the profit. The corporate types who stroll through occasionally to see if every display is straight and not crooked receive far larger paychecks. The truck drivers who deliver the product also get a share. As do the manufacturers who actually refine and box the product. the obvious conclusion is that labor is involved in the sale of the product. The question is what percentage of the sale value should each aspect of the labor receive?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Show me a capitalist who says he doesn't "work hard' for his money. Within the context of the culture and lifestyle I was brought up in, I work hard. not as hard as some, and harder than others. Were you to throw me in a third world nation where I was pulling old computer parts apart for copper wire, I would probably work harder, and gripe louder at the pennies a day i earned. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Yes...if the money comes out of social security trust funds simply to pay mass labor. It (Hurricane Irma) will create a lot of work rebuilding. Is that a bad thing? For the vanishing middle class, our future is tied up in "future obligations" while current obligations rob us of what we collectively saved. The whole problem with the rising tide argument is that it demolishes all of the houses built above water level. Marx saw it as class struggle. You know more about him than I do, but this whole idea of lumping the middle class in with the rich people is why I dont like communism.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The trees naturally exist and have value - no labor needed. Value is defined in human terms of need. The trees have value as flooring or other wood by-products. Labor is involved in creating that added hundred dollars. The property has value as a place to live or to exploit or to simply enjoy. You sold your trees so it appears you don't mind losing them. I acquire the right to the value of the trees by purchasing the property - no labor needed. The Indians never could understand how the palefaces attached a monetary value to land, rivers, and trees. If there were a sudden scarcity of wood and you yourself needed it, you may have to pay someone else many times what you made with your deal. Value always involves labor in one way or another. Art is priceless simply because no agreeable value can be found.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The topic is the decline and potential fall of the US...lets get back to that since NCE is not up to accepting ringos frame of argument.
In the news recently:
Trump Threatens to ‘Totally Destroy’ North Korea in First U.N. Speech Hopefully, Trump is not pushing us into a war. I respect his tough talk to a point...but the rhetoric could backfire...and Russia and China would win without firing a shot. Recently I read a prophey book by a Fundamentalist Pastor who suggested that the US would be destroyed in Bible Prophecy. quote: I take Biblical prophecy with a grain of salt, yet i dont totally dismiss the possibility. Edited by Phat, : fixed quote Edited by Phat, : link to sourceChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Of course, it is far more likely that they were intended to refer to the Roman Empire about the time of Nero. Hopefully! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Just so we can test the theory, the book also mentions today as the start of something big.(I dont really expect the prophecy to be correct, but just in case Kim Jong Un sends a missle our way....
quote: Edited by Phat, : sub titleChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If all value comes from labor, then who's labor provided the value to the rights to the trees? Yours. You had to earn the hundred bucks to buy the trees somehow.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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