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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 61 of 170 (819126)
09-06-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-05-2017 2:46 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:

a major economic event is when a majority of the people are directly affected.


You're defining it so broadly that it doesn't have much meaning. You said, " the Fall Of The American Empire will be punctuated by a major economic event," and now you're making it sound like every other Tuesday.

Phat writes:

Not just in having less disposable income but in having no income.


How do you propose that that would happen? Going back to the idea of labour being a source of wealth, what's to prevent me from working, even if not for money?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-05-2017 2:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 3:36 AM ringo has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7272
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 62 of 170 (819129)
09-06-2017 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
09-05-2017 2:46 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:

a major economic event is when a majority of the people are directly affected. Not just in having less disposable income but in having no income.

We are currently at 60% employment for people 16 and older. Adding another 10 percentage points to the currently unemployment numbers would probably be an indicator of a major economic downturn.

However, power is relative. History has shown us that when the US goes through a recession or massive depression, so does the majority of the 1st world. The Great Recession of 2008 didn't happen just in the US. It happened world wide.

So in relative terms, I think we would be just fine. We will still have all of the infrastructure we currently have. We will still have the diverse economy we currently have. We will still have a massive portion of the world's most productive farm lands. We will still have 300 million people and the means to put them to work.

I don't want to swing too far in the Polyanna direction, but I just don't see a dire future for the US.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 09-05-2017 2:46 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 63 of 170 (819223)
09-08-2017 2:56 AM


Irma will be costly
In relation to this discussion, Hurricane Irma could end up being a major economic event. Estimates of the costs associated with it are upwards of 100-300 billion dollars!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-08-2017 7:21 AM Phat has responded
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 09-08-2017 12:19 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 64 of 170 (819238)
09-08-2017 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
09-08-2017 2:56 AM


Re: Irma will be costly
What is the average price of a car today?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-08-2017 2:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-08-2017 6:34 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 65 of 170 (819266)
09-08-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
09-08-2017 2:56 AM


Re: Irma will be costly
Phat writes:

In relation to this discussion, Hurricane Irma could end up being a major economic event.


It will create a lot of work rebuilding. Is that a bad thing?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 09-08-2017 2:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 12:15 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 66 of 170 (819279)
09-08-2017 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
09-08-2017 7:21 AM


Re: Irma will be costly
I would say $20,000.00 for new ones, $8000.00 for used ones.

Just a guess


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jar, posted 09-08-2017 7:21 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 09-08-2017 6:46 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 67 of 170 (819280)
09-08-2017 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
09-08-2017 6:34 PM


Re: Irma will be costly
With Harvey alone the estimate is 250,000 cars to as many as 1,000,000 cars. That's just car loss.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 09-08-2017 6:34 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 68 of 170 (819711)
09-14-2017 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
09-06-2017 3:29 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Going back to the idea of labour being a source of wealth, what's to prevent me from working, even if not for money?
You could work...bartering is a form of economic trade. In order to help the economy, however...people would have to agree with each exchange of labor a common value. This isn't easy to do if I offer dandelion leaves while you have oak timber.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 09-06-2017 3:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-14-2017 11:37 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 69 of 170 (819734)
09-14-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
09-14-2017 3:36 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:

In order to help the economy, however...people would have to agree with each exchange of labor a common value. This isn't easy to do if I offer dandelion leaves while you have oak timber.


Why wouldn't people use dollars for exchange? There's plenty of them around even if the economists, in their infinite wisdom, decide they're worthless.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 3:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 1:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 70 of 170 (819746)
09-14-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
09-14-2017 11:37 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Because you said you could work even if not for money.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 09-14-2017 11:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 11:49 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 71 of 170 (819948)
09-15-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
09-14-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:

Because you said you could work even if not for money.


The question was about work, not pay. What would prevent me from working? Nothing. What would prevent people from paying me in any mutually-agreed-upon medium of exchange? Nothing. Whether or not the medium of exchange is "backed" by the government is relatively insignificant.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 1:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:06 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 72 of 170 (819952)
09-15-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
09-15-2017 11:49 AM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
I could pay you in a medium of exchange agreed upon by both of us, but if you tried to buy bread with it, you would then have to agree with the baker before you could eat.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 11:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:15 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 73 of 170 (819958)
09-15-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
Phat writes:

I could pay you in a medium of exchange agreed upon by both of us, but if you tried to buy bread with it, you would then have to agree with the baker before you could eat.


Yes. How is that an insurmountable problem?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 74 of 170 (819989)
09-15-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
How is that an insurmountable problem?

Because what if the baker cant come to an agreement with the farmer?

Everyone has to agree on a means of value before the economy starts to work.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by NoNukes, posted 09-15-2017 9:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 11:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 75 of 170 (820024)
09-15-2017 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
09-15-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Does All Money Originate From Labor?
"Because what if the baker cant come to an agreement with the farmer?"

Then he will have to try other farmers.

One problem with bartering as an alternative to a system using debt is that the farmer cannot get paid for months after he starts working. If he needs some capital to get started, what will offer? His wife and children?

Or an IOU...

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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