Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-19-2017 6:38 PM
353 online now:
Coragyps, Coyote, JonF, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat) (5 members, 348 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Happy Birthday: AdminPhat
Post Volume:
Total: 819,118 Year: 23,724/21,208 Month: 1,689/2,468 Week: 198/822 Day: 73/69 Hour: 0/5

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1213141516
17
Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 241 of 252 (819361)
09-10-2017 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by NoNukes
09-09-2017 9:14 AM


Re: Genetic Differences
Here, you just need to backtrack from Percy's message.

Supplementary Figure 7: Gene family expansions and contractions. (264 KB)

(a) Inferred gene gains (red) and losses (blue) in 8,877 gene families shared by 10 mammalian species are reported for each branch of the tree. (b) Number of gains (red) and losses (blue) per million years for each branch of the tree; human (H), chimpanzee (C), human and chimp (HC), orangutan (O), apes (A), rhesus macaque (M), apes and Old World monkeys (AO), marmoset (Cj), primates (P), mouse (S), rat (R), rodents (N), primates and rodents (PN), dog (D), horse (E), dog and horse (DE), cow (B) and Afrotheria (Af).

(I'm pretty sure the colours are swapped between graphs despite what the legend says)

Edited by CRR, : "not" deleted from last sentence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2017 9:14 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2017 7:57 PM CRR has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9912
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 242 of 252 (819422)
09-10-2017 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by CRR
09-10-2017 2:08 AM


Re: Genetic Differences
CRR writes:

a) Inferred gene gains (red) and losses (blue) in 8,877 gene families shared by 10 mammalian species are reported for each branch of the tree. (b) Number of gains (red) and losses (blue) per million years for each branch of the tree; human (H), chimpanzee (C), human and chimp (HC), orangutan (O), apes (A), rhesus macaque (M), apes and Old World monkeys (AO), marmoset (Cj), primates (P), mouse (S), rat (R), rodents (N), primates and rodents (PN), dog (D), horse (E), dog and horse (DE), cow (B) and Afrotheria (Af).

In order to determine a rate you need a change and a time period over which the change is measured. I understand that there are gains and losses. I don't see the time period in the original graphs, and your message responding to me does not show one either.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 2:08 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 9:16 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 243 of 252 (819424)
09-10-2017 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by NoNukes
09-10-2017 7:57 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
(b) Number of gains (red) and losses (blue) per million years ...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2017 7:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by herebedragons, posted 09-10-2017 11:12 PM CRR has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 244 of 252 (819428)
09-10-2017 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by CRR
09-10-2017 9:16 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
(b) Number of gains (red) and losses (blue) per million years ...

Here is a good link to the figure Suppl. Fig 7

If we figure an average generation time of 25 years, that would give us 40,000 generations in a million years. So to calculate the number of generations to gain or lose a gene we can divided number of generations by number of mutations per million years.

organism# genes gained# genes lostmutation rate / gen# gen. / loss or gain
Human250-.0063160
"-50.0013800
Chimp50-.0013800
" -150.0038260
Orangutan30-.00081300
" -200.005200

So... worst case, humans gained, on average, 1 gene every 160 generations, that is every 4,000 years. Orangutans lost a gene every 5,000 years.

What's the incredibly high mutation rate you see here?

HBD

ABE: Here is the original paper that figure is from in case anyone is interested. Common Marmoset genome. It is quite an intense paper, with around 100 authors, a dozen supplemental figures and about 40 supplemental tables.

Edited by herebedragons, : added link to original paper

Edited by herebedragons, : the colors indicating loss or gain in Suppl Fig 7 were swapped around, the chart above has been corrected to reflect this.

Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by CRR, posted 09-10-2017 9:16 PM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 7:44 AM herebedragons has responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 245 of 252 (819439)
09-11-2017 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by herebedragons
09-10-2017 11:12 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
Thanks for the good link. Suppl. Fig 7

If you look at figure (b) you will notice the blue bar for humans is the highest of the lot, about 5-6 times the average, and to match figure (a) that should be gains. I didn't do any specific calculations to confirm that this but checking now 1439/6 (million years)=240 so that matches gains shown in figure (a).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by herebedragons, posted 09-10-2017 11:12 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by herebedragons, posted 09-11-2017 7:56 AM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 247 by Taq, posted 09-11-2017 10:52 AM CRR has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 246 of 252 (819441)
09-11-2017 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by CRR
09-11-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Genetic Differences
Ah yes, they did swap the colors around, I do now remember you mentioning that. I thought it kind of odd (unexpected) that humans lost genes compared to other groups, but that they have the highest number of gains makes more sense. I will revise my chart to reflect this correction.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 7:44 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 247 of 252 (819456)
09-11-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by CRR
09-11-2017 7:44 AM


Re: Genetic Differences
CRR writes:

If you look at figure (b) you will notice the blue bar for humans is the highest of the lot, about 5-6 times the average, and to match figure (a) that should be gains. I didn't do any specific calculations to confirm that this but checking now 1439/6 (million years)=240 so that matches gains shown in figure (a).

The grand question is what does all of this have to do with the topic in the opening post?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 7:44 AM CRR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by herebedragons, posted 09-11-2017 1:47 PM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 249 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 5:47 PM Taq has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 248 of 252 (819473)
09-11-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Taq
09-11-2017 10:52 AM


Re: Genetic Differences
The grand question is what does all of this have to do with the topic in the opening post?

It's called "muddying the waters"

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Taq, posted 09-11-2017 10:52 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
CRR
Member
Posts: 578
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 249 of 252 (819486)
09-11-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Taq
09-11-2017 10:52 AM


Re: Genetic Differences
The grand question is what does all of this have to do with the topic in the opening post?

Not much, but these forums often drift off into side issues.

I've already said I'm not interested in answering the original topic because it is set up as a no win proposition.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Taq, posted 09-11-2017 10:52 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Tangle, posted 09-11-2017 5:56 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 251 by Percy, posted 09-11-2017 9:11 PM CRR has not yet responded
 Message 252 by Taq, posted 09-12-2017 10:40 AM CRR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5038
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 250 of 252 (819487)
09-11-2017 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by CRR
09-11-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
CRR writes:

I've already said I'm not interested in answering the original topic because it is set up as a no win proposition.

Yes, we've noticed you don't answer or even respond to questions asked of you. If you can't win any of these arguments what does that tell you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 5:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15909
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 251 of 252 (819504)
09-11-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by CRR
09-11-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
CRR writes:

I've already said I'm not interested in answering the original topic because it is set up as a no win proposition.

It was not a "no win proposition." Message 1 posed a simple question: why aren't two SNPs just nothing more than two microevolutionary events?

I don't know what you're afraid of. An SNP is the most basic of microevolutionary events. Two SNPs would be two basic microevolutionary events. What is the problem with simply acknowledging this?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 5:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7139
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 252 of 252 (819529)
09-12-2017 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by CRR
09-11-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Genetic Differences
CRR writes:

I've already said I'm not interested in answering the original topic because it is set up as a no win proposition.

If you can't point to a single difference between the human and chimp genomes that could not be produced by microevolution, then why do you claim that microevolution can not accumulate into macroevolution and that evolution can not produce new information?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by CRR, posted 09-11-2017 5:47 PM CRR has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1213141516
17
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017