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Author
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Topic: Evidence of the flood
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 318 of 899 (819465)
09-11-2017 12:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 277 by riVeRraT
09-10-2017 5:15 PM
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riVeRrat writes: ringo writes: You said that it was evidence OF the flood. That is a hypothesis of sorts.
No it isn't.
Yes it is. It's a proposed explanation based on limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation. What did you think a hypothesis was?
riVeRraT writes: ringo writes: So your hypothesis fails.
No it doesn't.
So you admit that it is a hypothesis after all.
riVeRraT writes: Because animals seek shelter in other situations does negate that they seek shelter in a flood, or biblical flood. It is only in addition too.
Animals seeking shelter does not in any way support the Flood myth. You might as well have said that Harvey the Hawk is evidence of Bigfoot.
riVeRraT writes: If you choose to ignore it, then its on you.
I'm not ignoring it. I'm pointing out that it's nonsense. If you choose to believe nonsense, it's on you.
riVeRraT writes: ringo writes: Jesus Himself encouraged Thomas to use objective evidence.
Yep, before He died and gave us the Holt Spirit.
Nope, after He rose from the dead:
quote:
John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Hint: the wounds weren't there until after the crucifixion. Jesus was advocating faith based on evidence: Look at the evidence and then have faith.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 277 by riVeRraT, posted 09-10-2017 5:15 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 363 of 899 (819536)
09-12-2017 11:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 325 by NoNukes
09-11-2017 4:26 PM
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NoNukes writes: Jesus talked about faith enough, that your interpretation can readily be seen as unlikely. Jesus did not make his remark out of thin air.
Indeed He didn't. Look at Matthew 5: "Blessed are the poor in spirit." Is it preferable to be poor in spirit? "Blessed are they that mourn." Is it preferable to mourn? "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake." Is it preferable to be persecuted? "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." Is it preferable to be reviled, to be persecuted? It seems that blessings are a mixed bag. By no means does it automatically suggest "preferable". In some cases, the blessings are only a comfort for people who have nothing else. Jesus offered the evidence. He didn't say, "Accept the story by faith or go to Hell."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 325 by NoNukes, posted 09-11-2017 4:26 PM | | NoNukes has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 372 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2017 4:40 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 427 of 899 (819622)
09-13-2017 3:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 372 by NoNukes
09-12-2017 4:40 PM
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NoNukes writes: If you actually believe that Jesus was not only elevating Doubting Thomas, but denigrating the others for their faith, you are welcome to hold that belief.
I didn't say any such thing. I said it isn't at all clear that Jesus had a preference for faith over evidence. You haven't said a single thing to back up that position. Look at the story:
quote:
John 20:19-20 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
He showed the evidence to the disciples.
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John 20:24-25 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
It was the eyewitness testimony of the other disciples that Thomas didn't believe.
quote:
John 20:26-27 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Jesus showed Thomas the same evidence that he had already shown the other disciples.
quote:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
But there were none who had believed without seeing the evidence. Show us where Jesus expressed any preference for faith over evidence. I don't see any such indication in the story.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2017 4:40 PM | | NoNukes has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 429 of 899 (819625)
09-13-2017 3:31 PM
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Reply to: Message 405 by Phat
09-13-2017 8:13 AM
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Re: Back To The Definition Of Evidence
Phat writes: To her credit, she is EvC Forums lone representative of Biblical Creationism.
Faith represents neither the Bible nor creationism. She makes it all up as she goes along.
Phat writes: I am still waiting for everyone to clarify what exactly evidence is.
I'll throw in my answer again, though I wouldn't call it a definition per se. Evidence is evident. Everybody can see it. We can all see the bullet hole in the dead body. Whether the bullet hole caused the death is another question. Faith insists that the victim was walking around with a bullet hole through his heart when he was killed by lightning, even though there is no sign of a lightning strike and there hasn't been a thunderstorm in months. riVeRraT insists that the bullet hole is evidence of the Flood.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 405 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 8:13 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 430 of 899 (819626)
09-13-2017 3:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 412 by Phat
09-13-2017 9:01 AM
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Re: Back To The Definition Of Evidence
Phat writes: Some of the Pastors that I know would likely claim that since the Bible is true, God by definition through Jesus is evident. They would then probably quote Romans.
The "wrath" - e.g. hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. - is evident. God is not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 412 by Phat, posted 09-13-2017 9:01 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 432 of 899 (819628)
09-13-2017 3:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 431 by 1.61803
09-13-2017 3:40 PM
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~1.6 writes: Silly me all this time I thought that was the whole damn point.
That's what the apologists want you to believe. But is it what the Bible says?
~1.6 writes: Kinda like when Jesus told that roman soldier that his faith has healed his son because he believed without seeing.
Kinda like when people tell Dr. Phil that he's the only one who can help them. Of course that has nothing to do with faith being "preferable".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 431 by 1.61803, posted 09-13-2017 3:40 PM | | 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 513 of 899 (819736)
09-14-2017 11:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 492 by riVeRraT
09-13-2017 11:59 PM
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Re: Atheistic science?
riVeRraT writes: That doesn't mean real scientists can't use any data collected during creation science.
What data is ever collected by creationists?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 492 by riVeRraT, posted 09-13-2017 11:59 PM | | riVeRraT has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 673 of 899 (819955)
09-15-2017 12:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 653 by Pressie
09-15-2017 1:17 AM
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Re: strat column
Pressie writes: I also don't know what Faith is trying to say here. Every spot on earth has an actual geo/stratigraphic column.
I know what Faith is trying to say: "The police say that everybody in this room is a suspect. I didn't do it; therefore I am not in this room." Anything that doesn't fit her scenario doesn't exist.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 653 by Pressie, posted 09-15-2017 1:17 AM | | Pressie has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 887 of 899 (820580)
09-23-2017 11:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 885 by edge
09-22-2017 10:24 PM
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Re: Learning How Others Think
edge writes: When did you realize that you are infallible?
The Bible is infallible. Therefore, anybody who claims to believe the Bible is infallible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 885 by edge, posted 09-22-2017 10:24 PM | | edge has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Learning How Others Think
Juvenissun writes: ringo writes: The Bible is infallible. Therefore, anybody who claims to believe the Bible is infallible.
It may be true.
First of all, I want to make it clear that I was being ironic. I was citing the beliefs of our member Faith (who is as crazy as a sack of bedbugs), not my own.
Juvenissun writes: However, it is very very easy to ask question about what the Bible says. And it is usually quite difficult to give a reasonable answer.
If you mean it's difficult to twist the Bible into saying what you want it to say, I agree. It's not that difficult if you accept what it DOES say.
Juvenissun writes: Do you want to try one?
By all means, let's discuss the Bible - but not in this thread. This is a science thread; the Bible carries no weight here. We do have a whole section for Bible discussions. Feel free to contribute to a thread over there or start a new thread.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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ringo
Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Learning How Others Think
Juvenissun writes: It is so easy to ridicule what said in the Bible, isn't it?
It isn't about ridiculing the Bible. It's about reading the Bible honestly and with respect for what it is. If it's wrong about something, it's wrong - but we still need to accept what it actually says, not try to twist it into making sense. But as I said, this is not the thread for Bible discussion.
"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 899 by Juvenissun, posted 07-31-2020 3:51 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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