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Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 114 (819535)
09-12-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by NoNukes
09-09-2017 1:03 PM


Understanding Money
NoNukes writes:
The real problem here is the inability to make any kind of budget other than under emergency conditions like those imposed by having to raise the debt ceiling. The short term planning we do wastes money at least by forcing folks to plan on short cycles, but also by forcing us to borrow money under shorter time cycles than we could if we knew our priorities in advance.
I think the problem is even deeper. I believe that the entire financial system is based on borrowing, and is destined to fail. Watch this 9-minute video and tell me if you agree with the premise.
What Is A Bailout
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by NoNukes, posted 09-09-2017 1:03 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by caffeine, posted 09-12-2017 1:47 PM Phat has replied
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2017 4:47 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 114 (819558)
09-12-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by caffeine
09-12-2017 1:47 PM


Re: Understanding Money
It can't...because the debts to the government are the debts to the social security trust funds. Look at it as a debt to future obligations.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by caffeine, posted 09-12-2017 1:47 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by jar, posted 09-12-2017 4:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 70 by caffeine, posted 09-13-2017 3:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 114 (819637)
09-13-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by NoNukes
09-12-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Understanding Money
The man who made the video is respected. His name is Paul Grignon. Its all common sense to me. I dont see what keeps you from seeing that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2017 4:47 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 73 of 114 (819638)
09-13-2017 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
09-13-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Understanding Money
It would not be easy. Trump has even proposed tax reform aimed at it. FDR started it with the intention of having it around in perpetuity.
LA Times writes:
As FDR foresaw, endowing Social Security with its own revenue stream has protected it over the years from grasping politicians mostly conservatives, who have aimed since 1935 to eviscerate the program. The weekly or bi-weekly payroll deductions that go to the program have given workers a proprietary interest in benefits that has been hard to undermine.(...)Already, conservatives and budget hawks repeat as a mantra that the cost of Social Security is unsustainable. That’s their claim even though the program runs a surplus today and ensuring its fiscal stability for the future would require a modest increase in the tax rate or removal of the cap on taxable wages ($127,200 this year).
Scrapping the payroll tax would make it easier for Congress to cut Social Security benefits under the guise of saving the government money. And that’s just another way to funnel more money to the rich, at the expense of the working class.
Thus we the public need to fight this with everything we have. Social Security came from our earnings and should be ours---forever.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 4:29 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 6:24 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 114 (819661)
09-13-2017 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by jar
09-13-2017 6:24 PM


Re: Understanding Money
They have no idea how big of a revolution it would cause. The people always win, in the final analysis. If this government has any brains at all, they should know that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 6:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 7:47 PM Phat has replied
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 09-14-2017 12:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 114 (819678)
09-13-2017 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
09-13-2017 7:47 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Who depends on Social Security?
The working class...those of us who don't make enough to save much and who can't rely on family inheritance.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 7:47 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 8:48 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2017 8:51 PM Phat has replied
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 09-13-2017 9:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 114 (819686)
09-13-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
09-13-2017 8:51 PM


Re: Understanding Money
No...I'm not saying that. I'm saying that working class is under 80 k. They make enough to pay rent and house payments and support their families...but they cannot save enough to retire with 300k or so...they need social security. And if the wealthy of this country abandon the old and the sick, may God take vengeance on this country.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2017 8:51 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 9:02 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 114 (819697)
09-13-2017 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
09-13-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Thats horrible. Is it the same bunch that elected Trump? In my opinion, even immigrants would vote to keep social security, as they respect the old.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-13-2017 9:02 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 114 (819745)
09-14-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
09-14-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Perhaps I mean that the majority of people win.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ringo, posted 09-14-2017 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jar, posted 09-14-2017 1:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 11:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 114 (819954)
09-15-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
09-15-2017 11:46 AM


Re: Understanding Money
What I am trying to do is propose the government that we the people should have. A fair one. If I can get a majority to agree with me as to what constitutes fairness, this train may yet leave the station.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 114 (819985)
09-15-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:21 PM


Re: Understanding Money
The "fairness" that you propose seems to rest on you staying above the dregs of the working class. How is that fair to them?
Point taken.
But we have a no-win situation.
How is it fair to me to be stuck with the masses...unable to rise?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 114 (819987)
09-15-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
09-15-2017 1:29 PM


Re: Understanding Money
A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?
But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has?
Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 114 (819990)
09-15-2017 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
09-15-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Understanding Money
Why do you deserve more than everyone else?
What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 11:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 114 (820095)
09-16-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
09-16-2017 11:40 AM


What The Masses Deserve
Why do you deserve to be above the tide?
My Dad used to explain his take on socialism to me. Of course, he conflated it with Soviet Era communism, but he basically made the argument that in America, people were free to buy the car that they could afford rather than be forced to all drive essentially the same car. You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things. Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it?
I agree that we should focus on raising the tide for the workers. I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however.
If the cashier cant come to an agreement with the Boss, the cashiers collectively pressure the Boss for more. If the Boss refuses, we look for other jobs. One side is partial to favoritism and the value of an individual worker, where young strong folks have value. The other side is partial to experience and patience, where the older people apply wisdom and patience as a skill equivalent to muscle. In a free country, there is never a discussion on what an individual deserves. Only on what an individual can aspire to have through hard work, muscle, patience, and wisdom.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 12:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 114 (820185)
09-17-2017 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
09-16-2017 12:29 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Again, what entitles you to something better?
If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it. There will be a cost that I pay one way or another, but I believe that I can achieve what it is I want. In a sense, I entitle myself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-16-2017 12:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 2:16 PM Phat has replied

  
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