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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 89 of 142 (819907)
09-15-2017 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:33 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Thus...ones behavior is evidence of internal and intestinal fortitude at least. Tangle seems to think that God is absent. I would argue that strong positive behavior and character are evidence that God exists through some people. There are many recent examples in stories from the virgin islands and other devastated places...where individual actions of altruism and comfort beyond the norm were observed. These people have God in them whether they are aware of it or not.
Oh Phat......
People acting to help other people is no more evidence of god than bees helping other bees is. It's part of our programming - we find it hard NOT to help.
If you want evidence of the absence of god it's right there in the hurricane itself.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:14 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 94 of 142 (819968)
09-15-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Only because the hypothetical god does not behave as you determine He should behave.
No. I figure that YOUR god - the one represented by the story of Jesus- would not send hurricanes to murder those that he professes to love.
I agree, if you believe that god is a sadist, then the evidence is right there.
So at best the evidence is subjective.
There's no such thing as subjective evidence. And in any case, there's not much more objective than a category 5 hurricane.
I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.
That's just utter crap and I suspect you know it. What parent would put their child deliberately in harm's way? Really Phat.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 105 of 142 (819984)
09-15-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:53 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
If your analogy holds...and God is defined as a cosmic Parent
It was YOUR analogy
quote:
Phat writes:
I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.
How would you hypothetically imagine God removing all of the dangers in the yard and envisioning the world that would then exist?
I dunno, how about creating something like the Garden of Eden? That sounded like a decent enough place.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 4:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 107 of 142 (820227)
09-17-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
09-17-2017 4:59 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
It has been done.
What has?
Lets say that you could hypothetically interview the author of the story(stories)
Would you not ask them their motives and inspirations for writing the story?
No, I'd ask them where they came from
Would you ask them why they portrayed God as a villain at times, a rescuer at other times?
Ditto above
What if they said that you were in the story? Would you request helping them to define your character?
What??? Have you been smoking that stuff again?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 4:59 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 112 of 142 (820391)
09-20-2017 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
09-19-2017 10:48 PM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:
I don't reject Geology as such just as I don't reject Biology as such, they both do important work. What I reject is the Old Earth and Evolutionist interpretive schemes.
By rejecting old earth and evolution you are rejecting all geology and all biology because they both require a central theory to hold them together. Remove them and all you have is a list of parts.
But additionally, you reject astronomy, molecular biology, genetics, embriology, radio science, dendrology and any number of other intererelated disciplines. You have absolutely no idea of the quantity and depth of research that lies behind all of these sciences. Because you can sit at your desk inventing stories that don't have to be supported by evidence or fit with other science and because you've had no training in any of them you're utterly clueless about what supports real science.
If you enter the term 'evolutionary theory' into google scholar you get 2.63 million technical, peer reviewed papers. That's just the tip of it. For each paper you can follow their references to source and study the primary data yourself. Science isn't done by just thinking about stuff and making up stories.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 10:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 114 of 142 (820397)
09-20-2017 4:17 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
09-20-2017 3:57 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:
I ought to know if I reject those other sciences
Yes, you really ought to.
The fact that you don't think that you reject, say, radio dating, but simply say that it 'has to be wrong' ought to tell something about how you rationalise these things.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:19 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 116 of 142 (820400)
09-20-2017 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:19 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:
I know I reject radiometric dating, what does that have to do with your overall statement that I reject whole sciences when I know I don't?
If you reject the process of evolution and instead believe that species were created whole, you reject biology, if you claim that billion year old rocks are 4,000 years old you reject geology. If you believe that the stars are not billions of light years away then you reject astronomy......I could go on.
You think you're picking and choosing between independent facts, you don't understand that all the sciences support each other, you can't reject one part without rejecting the whole. By claiming that the earth is 6,000 years old you reject all science and all its core principles and methodologies.
You're essentially a mediaeval woman out of your time.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:54 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 118 of 142 (820404)
09-20-2017 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:54 AM


Re: Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith writes:
You can't define for me what I believe. I believe in everything to do with the sciences that can be replicated and tested and that is in fact most of the content of most of the sciences.
I'm not defining what you believe, that would be an almighty and depressing task, I'm informing you of what you, yourself, reject, which turns out to be most of all science.
Science is not religion, you can't pick and choose the bits you prefer - they all hang together and support each other. A belief in a 6,000 year old earth destroys all of science plus all of its methodologies.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : Spelin'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 5:31 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 126 of 142 (826486)
01-02-2018 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 2:57 PM


AlexCaledin writes:
just found an extremely valuable text for Believers (not for Atheists)
And what a crazy pile of steaming horse shit it is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-02-2018 2:57 PM AlexCaledin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 4:29 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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