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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 781 of 899 (820150)
09-16-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 775 by Faith
09-16-2017 2:44 PM


Re: The Premise of a Creationist
Faith writes:
Why don't you stop being a vindictive creep?
Well, since we're asking questions:
  • Why don't you stop making false accusations, issuing insults, making untrue claims, constructing scenarios out of whole cloth, and insisting that everyone just accept all your abuse and the things you make up?
  • Why don't you drop out of one-liner mode?
  • Why don't you address all the rebuttals instead of just repeating your original claims over and over again?
  • Why don't you come up with scenarios that don't contradict known physical laws?
  • Why don't you come up with ideas supported by actual evidence?
  • Why don't you behave with the maturity of at least a ten-year old?
  • Why out of everyone here do you behave in the least Christian manner?
  • Why, since you're obviously so miserable and no one's making you stay here, don't you go somewhere else?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 2:44 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 5:16 PM Percy has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 782 of 899 (820154)
09-16-2017 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 774 by Faith
09-16-2017 2:44 PM


Re: The Premise of a Creationist
Ain't no such thing as liquid limestone. Lime dissolved in water, yeah. Which takes a long time to produce limestone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 2:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(3)
Message 783 of 899 (820159)
09-16-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by Percy
09-16-2017 3:14 PM


Understanding Faith
Percy writes:
Why, since you're obviously so miserable and no one's making you stay here, don't you go somewhere else?
I think what we have to understand about Faith, (and I do suggest that we should be understanding of her position), is that her whole her world view, in fact her whole life, is based on a belief in an so-called inerrant reading of scripture. If she allows herself to move away from that position it essentially destroys her whole sense of what is important in life.
I have heard people say in Bible studies that if one thing in the Bible is found to be in error then we can’t trust anything it says. In other words, instead of worshiping the Word or wisdom of God as embodied in Jesus she and others worship a collection of books, which they essentially believe was dictated by God.
The thing is that she represents a well articulated voice for a minority of Christians that believe as she does. If she leaves the Evolution vs Creation forum we will be left with a discussion group of like thinking people that accept evolution but with little or no input from Biblical creationists.
Sure, as a Christian I find Faith’s views contrary to how I contend the Bible is to be understood. Her understanding of how the Scriptures are to be understood portrays the nature of God to be very much at odds with the nature of God that we see in the person and the words of Jesus. However, she is not alone in her views and it is important that we can have open discussion with people on forums like this so we can at least understand one another’s views, and even learn from them.
I realize that many of you become very frustrated by her posts but she gets equally as frustrated with the posts of the rest of us.
I think it would be a shame to lose her on this forum.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 3:14 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 6:04 PM GDR has replied
 Message 787 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 8:24 PM GDR has replied
 Message 788 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 8:26 PM GDR has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 784 of 899 (820163)
09-16-2017 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by GDR
09-16-2017 5:16 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
GDR writes:
I think what we have to understand about Faith, (and I do suggest that we should be understanding of her position), is that her whole her world view, in fact her whole life, is based on a belief in an so-called inerrant reading of scripture.
It isn't Faith's religious world view that anyone objects to. It's her social world view where anyone who disagrees with her is deserving of whatever rude and demeaning behavior she decides to dole out.
I have a world view, too, predicated upon mutual respect, understanding and consideration. This means that of course I agree with all the sentiments you express. The question is what level of special dispensation is warranted. To what degree must my world view yield to Faith's? Ironically, by my world view's very nature it must surrender to Faith's world view of scorn and derision and insult every time. Of course, in reality my world view is a starting point that begins with respect and consideration but that evolves depending upon the degree of mutuality.
I do not believe that out of respect for Faith's religious beliefs we are obligated to become her whipping boy and just take it as she dishes out her scorn and disdain and bombast in a variety of forms. A steady diet of, "OH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH BLAH BLAH BLAH. SO WHAT" (from Faith's Message 759) and so forth deserves an appropriate response. This appropriate response would not indicate any lack of respect for Faith's religious beliefs. It would indicate that you will not tolerate the kind of behavior that certainly has no place in a science discussion board.
As to whether Faith stays or goes, that is up to her. She certainly never listens to anything I say. I imagine she must be getting something out of this, else she wouldn't keep coming back.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 5:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 785 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 8:10 PM Percy has replied
 Message 786 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:17 PM Percy has replied
 Message 857 by Phat, posted 09-19-2017 4:24 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 785 of 899 (820164)
09-16-2017 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by Percy
09-16-2017 6:04 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
Funny how you've tolerated Dr. A's nothing- but- snarky one liners over the years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 6:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by Percy, posted 09-18-2017 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 786 of 899 (820165)
09-16-2017 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by Percy
09-16-2017 6:04 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
I understand that Percy but she gets a lot of abusive aimed at her as well. How often his her faith in particular, but even that of non-fundamentalist Christians, been called superstition, a fairy tale or mocked in other ways such as in references to Dawkin's Flying Spaghetti Monster. Posts like that are often cheered and are pretty much the accepted norm.
There is no doubt that Faith goes overboard in many of her posts, but I suggest that as she is so virtually alone in her position she carries a level of frustration that has to be higher than the rest of us. It seems to me that she has held in there when pretty much all other creationists have left the site.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 6:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 8:29 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 794 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 8:59 PM GDR has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 787 of 899 (820166)
09-16-2017 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by GDR
09-16-2017 5:16 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
I appreciate your sentiment but keep in mind that Faith's position is that none of her claims have anything to do with her religious beliefs. She comes to these conclusions based solely on the evidence. We are just asking for discussions based on evidence, her religious beliefs should be irrelevant.
When someone comes to a science / evidence based discussion with conclusions that go against how things are known to work and they are unwilling to consider rebuttal evidence, it can't be much of a science / evidence based discussion, can it? It can only be bare assertions and accusations.
If Faith wants to discuss her religious views, there are venues for that. If she wants to have science / evidence based discussions, she should bring evidence and be prepared to have her conclusions questioned.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 5:16 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:34 PM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 791 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 8:39 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 788 of 899 (820167)
09-16-2017 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by GDR
09-16-2017 5:16 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
Thank you for your defense GDR, but while some of my impatience and frustration may be due to my determination to hold on to my Biblical worldview, I don't think that's much of it in this discussion, in fact it's probably not a factor at all.
I've been honing this particular argument for a long long time by now, sometimes I get a new lead and incorporate it, or drop something else that doesn't work as well, but I'm totally devoted to it (also to the argument about evolution defeating evolution through the loss of genetic diversity). In this case I wasn't intending to get into it again, but I was getting nagged to death about the basic statements about it I made so I got into a pattern of answering the usual attacks with more flat statements from the point of view of my argument.
It's a complete model unto itself and it works. When Percy says it violates physical laws that's because he's the one with the deficiency in that area, which goes back years here, not I, and having to tolerate that level of ignorance when I'm the only one defending my position is very hard to take. I know prayer would at least calm me down but when people say stupid things and accuse me falsely I can practically feel my blood pressure rise and I impulsively react. He has the power, he does not have the understanding.
In other words my frustration is about how my favorite arguments get treated here, not about my biblical beliefs. I know it's a paradigm clash but people who have some pretense to scientific thinking should recognize that I'm making sense at least. Since they don't I've finally been worn down to the point that I don't care what I say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 5:16 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:42 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 789 of 899 (820168)
09-16-2017 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by GDR
09-16-2017 8:17 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
Thank you again GDR. Yes somehow the abuse flung at me all the time here doesn't even get noticed, it's only my provoked reactions that get noticed. But while the abuse about religion is part of it, as HBD seems to be saying it's more about the science in an argument like this one. I'm treated as stupid for having a different interpretation of the evidence, for failing to agree with the establishment. The abuse is aimed at my supposed scientific errors and that's just as offensive and provocative. Oh also I'm arrogant because I've been doing this argument for so long I simply know it's right.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 790 of 899 (820169)
09-16-2017 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 8:24 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
hbd writes:
When someone comes to a science / evidence based discussion with conclusions that go against how things are known to work and they are unwilling to consider rebuttal evidence, it can't be much of a science / evidence based discussion, can it? It can only be bare assertions and accusations.
Good point. I sometimes don't notice that it is a science forum. The thing is though that Faith's religious beliefs are the foundation for her beliefs where science is confirmed, and as a result she will make the science conform to her religious beliefs.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 8:24 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 792 by Coyote, posted 09-16-2017 8:39 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 8:42 PM GDR has replied
 Message 798 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 9:34 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 791 of 899 (820170)
09-16-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 8:24 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
If Faith wants to discuss her religious views, there are venues for that. If she wants to have science / evidence based discussions, she should bring evidence and be prepared to have her conclusions questioned.
Not at this point. I've made this argument so many times by now I just fall into stating it in response to statements by the OE/Evos here, not even intending to get into it again. They say stupid stuff like how there wasn't a worldwide flood or how such and such took millions of years so I shoot out my own contrary conclusion that ought to be pretty familiar by now. I forget where this particular debacle started but I'm pretty sure it was something along these lines. They shoot out their one line establishment opinion and I answer with mine. Then they attack me for my lack of evidence.
b
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 8:24 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 792 of 899 (820171)
09-16-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by GDR
09-16-2017 8:34 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
The thing is though that Faith's religious beliefs are the foundation for her beliefs where science is confirmed, and as a result she will make the science conform to her religious beliefs.
Unfortunately, that's the exact opposite of science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:34 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 793 of 899 (820172)
09-16-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by GDR
09-16-2017 8:34 PM


No, it's all science
You are wrong now. Both of my arguments against the Old Earth and evolution from species to species and for the Flood and rapid evolution within the species are based on nothing but observed facts, not my Christian beliefs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 795 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 9:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 794 of 899 (820173)
09-16-2017 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by GDR
09-16-2017 8:17 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
GDR writes:
I understand that Percy but she gets a lot of abusive aimed at her as well.
I have moderated many Faith threads. The most significant problem in defending Faith is that she almost always starts it, and then even when requested to let moderation handle things, she continues lashing out. It isn't often abuse that she is responding to but simply pointing out how she is wrong. Read ahead to Faith's Message 788 and Message 789 where she describes how angry she gets when people say she is wrong. Her reaction to being told she's wrong isn't to muster her evidence and advocate for her point of view but to strike out. If you want to be Faith's advocate that is your choice, but be wary because like Trump she could turn on you in a second.
Sometimes Faith keeps herself in check long enough for a moderator to take action, and over the years I have issued many suspensions to people who were in debate with Faith.
How often his her faith in particular, but even that of non-fundamentalist Christians, been called superstition, a fairy tale or mocked in other ways such as in references to Dawkin's Flying Spaghetti Monster. Posts like that are often cheered and are pretty much the accepted norm.
How often in science threads has Faith declared that the Bible is the final word? Including this one?
There is no doubt that Faith goes overboard in many of her posts, but I suggest that as she is so virtually alone in her position she carries a level of frustration that has to be higher than the rest of us. It seems to me that she has held in there when pretty much all other creationists have left the site.
Other forces are at work. Discussion boards are a dying breed. Social media is where the action is now. Google won't even give our search results much visibility because we don't fit well into a mobile form factor. In any case, it makes no sense to give Faith favorable treatment because she's the last creationist here. There are Forum Guidelines and there are rules of common human decency, and Faith should follow those.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 795 of 899 (820174)
09-16-2017 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by Faith
09-16-2017 8:42 PM


Re: No, it's all science
Faith writes:
You are wrong now. Both of my arguments against the Old Earth and evolution from species to species and for the Flood and rapid evolution within the species are based on nothing but observed facts, not my Christian beliefs.
The problem is Faith that you are debating with, in some cases, people who have an extensive background in this subject and are doing so without any pre-suppositions. You however, as a lay person in the field, are starting with the idea of an actual world wide flood and looking for anything that you can use to conform to your original starting point. It doesn't necessarily make you wrong but it would be like me debating physics with our much missed cavediver.
I have learned a fair bit of physics on this board by asking questions, and looking for answers. The problem is that if someone who is knowledgeable makes a point that argues against the world wide flood you have to reject it out of hand because you cannot question your underlying belief in an inerrant Bible. It is difficult, if not impossible, to benefit from the knowledge of others with that mind set.
I know I've said this before but maybe just trying looking at an inerrant Jesus as a starting point and then understand the Bible in that light. If you do that you might find that it doesn't matter one way or the other whether there was a world wide flood. I'd better shut up. As was pointed out this is a science forum.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 8:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 9:27 PM GDR has not replied

  
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