Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 774 of 899 (820142)
09-16-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Percy
09-16-2017 2:42 PM


Re: The Premise of a Creationist
It's a channel. It was filled with liquid limestone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 2:42 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 777 by Coragyps, posted 09-16-2017 3:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 779 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 3:04 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 782 by JonF, posted 09-16-2017 3:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 775 of 899 (820143)
09-16-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 773 by Percy
09-16-2017 2:42 PM


Re: The Premise of a Creationist
Why don't you stop being a vindictive creep?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 2:42 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 781 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 3:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 785 of 899 (820164)
09-16-2017 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by Percy
09-16-2017 6:04 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
Funny how you've tolerated Dr. A's nothing- but- snarky one liners over the years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 6:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 827 by Percy, posted 09-18-2017 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 788 of 899 (820167)
09-16-2017 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by GDR
09-16-2017 5:16 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
Thank you for your defense GDR, but while some of my impatience and frustration may be due to my determination to hold on to my Biblical worldview, I don't think that's much of it in this discussion, in fact it's probably not a factor at all.
I've been honing this particular argument for a long long time by now, sometimes I get a new lead and incorporate it, or drop something else that doesn't work as well, but I'm totally devoted to it (also to the argument about evolution defeating evolution through the loss of genetic diversity). In this case I wasn't intending to get into it again, but I was getting nagged to death about the basic statements about it I made so I got into a pattern of answering the usual attacks with more flat statements from the point of view of my argument.
It's a complete model unto itself and it works. When Percy says it violates physical laws that's because he's the one with the deficiency in that area, which goes back years here, not I, and having to tolerate that level of ignorance when I'm the only one defending my position is very hard to take. I know prayer would at least calm me down but when people say stupid things and accuse me falsely I can practically feel my blood pressure rise and I impulsively react. He has the power, he does not have the understanding.
In other words my frustration is about how my favorite arguments get treated here, not about my biblical beliefs. I know it's a paradigm clash but people who have some pretense to scientific thinking should recognize that I'm making sense at least. Since they don't I've finally been worn down to the point that I don't care what I say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 5:16 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:42 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 789 of 899 (820168)
09-16-2017 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by GDR
09-16-2017 8:17 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
Thank you again GDR. Yes somehow the abuse flung at me all the time here doesn't even get noticed, it's only my provoked reactions that get noticed. But while the abuse about religion is part of it, as HBD seems to be saying it's more about the science in an argument like this one. I'm treated as stupid for having a different interpretation of the evidence, for failing to agree with the establishment. The abuse is aimed at my supposed scientific errors and that's just as offensive and provocative. Oh also I'm arrogant because I've been doing this argument for so long I simply know it's right.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:17 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 791 of 899 (820170)
09-16-2017 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 8:24 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
If Faith wants to discuss her religious views, there are venues for that. If she wants to have science / evidence based discussions, she should bring evidence and be prepared to have her conclusions questioned.
Not at this point. I've made this argument so many times by now I just fall into stating it in response to statements by the OE/Evos here, not even intending to get into it again. They say stupid stuff like how there wasn't a worldwide flood or how such and such took millions of years so I shoot out my own contrary conclusion that ought to be pretty familiar by now. I forget where this particular debacle started but I'm pretty sure it was something along these lines. They shoot out their one line establishment opinion and I answer with mine. Then they attack me for my lack of evidence.
b
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 787 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 8:24 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 793 of 899 (820172)
09-16-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 790 by GDR
09-16-2017 8:34 PM


No, it's all science
You are wrong now. Both of my arguments against the Old Earth and evolution from species to species and for the Flood and rapid evolution within the species are based on nothing but observed facts, not my Christian beliefs.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 8:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 795 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 9:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 796 of 899 (820175)
09-16-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 795 by GDR
09-16-2017 9:09 PM


Re: No, it's all science
I know my argument and I know what I'm doing and I've been at this a very long time and you know absolutely nothing about it and shouldnj't have said a single word. It's not about the Bible, it's about the observed physical factsw. How dare you come along after years of not following any of it and stick your nose into something you know nothing about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 795 by GDR, posted 09-16-2017 9:09 PM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 797 of 899 (820176)
09-16-2017 9:28 PM


Yes I get very angry at being told I'm wrong when I know I'm right and all you are doing is trumpeting the party line which is right only by convention.
And yes at the end of the day the Bible trumps everything but the arguments I make here are based on the physical facts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 801 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2017 1:33 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 800 of 899 (820179)
09-16-2017 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 798 by Percy
09-16-2017 9:34 PM


Re: Understanding Faith
So much for the Rule against personal attack.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 798 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 9:34 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Percy, posted 09-18-2017 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 805 of 899 (820188)
09-17-2017 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 801 by PaulK
09-17-2017 1:33 AM


monadnocks
And yes at the end of the day the Bible trumps everything but the arguments I make here are based on the physical facts.
Often they aren't.
AS OPPOSED TO BEING BASED ON THE BIBLE. READ IN CONTEXT FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE! THE POINT IS I'M ONLY THINKING THROUGH THE PHYSICAL SITUATION AND NOT RELYING ON ANYTHING ELSE.
Is your idea that the buried monadnocks in the Grand Canyon rocks were formed by being pushed up based on physical facts ? Do you have any evidence of the faulting or the folding of the underlying strata that would inevitably be there if you were correct ? Any evidence at all ? Or is it just a refusal to accept -literally - massive evidence of major erosion between strata ?
It's all based on the Great Unconformity's tilting and the strata in the Supergroup and the granite and the schist and the magma fingers, all ililustrated on the cross section, illustrated as confined to the basement area beneath the Tapeats. This is what is interpreted on the standard theory as having to have occurred before the strata were laid down, but I'm interpreting it as having occurred afterward and I give evidence for that.
My argument is that all those facts are the effect of the great tectonic event that occurred after the Flood, after all the strata were laid down, at which time they would all still be somewhat wet and malleable. In fact I also hypothesize that the Flood began to recede as part of the same tectonic event so it was all still underwater. This malleability is why the whole stack could be lifted up over the GU in the mounded form that is illustrated on the cross section. The GU was tilted and the stack lifted by that tectonic action. The volcanism occurred as part of the same event, forming the granite and the schist. There is one major monadnock which is an extension of the Shinumo quartzite layer in the Supergroup. Most of the Supergroup got broken off by the sliding at the Great Unconformity, but the quartzite was hard enough not to break so easily so that a great length of it coujld penetrate upward into the still-softish layers
above. The faulting in the Supergroup is evident on the cross section; the angle of the monadnock was formed by the tilting of the Supergroup.
That is the only explanation consistent with the scenario I've built.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 801 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2017 1:33 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by JonF, posted 09-17-2017 8:42 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 809 by edge, posted 09-17-2017 8:50 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 811 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2017 9:38 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 806 of 899 (820189)
09-17-2017 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 773 by Percy
09-16-2017 2:42 PM


Temple Butte layering in channel
The Temple Butte streambed is filled with sedimentary layers. "Limestone dissolution" somehow filling the streambed would leave completely different evidence.
That's a good point. So the channel was filled by the Flood deposit of the Temple Butte limestone. But something had to cut the channel after the strata were laid down, and that is often done by the acidic water that dissolves limestone.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 773 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 2:42 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 810 by edge, posted 09-17-2017 8:52 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 829 by Percy, posted 09-18-2017 12:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 807 of 899 (820190)
09-17-2017 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 802 by Phat
09-17-2017 2:42 AM


Re: Understanding Faith
But why is your method of evidence incomprehensible to most of EvC? Have you somehow tapped into the creative mind of an intelligent designer? Were you cosmically blessed? (I'm not being facetious...this is a valid question)
I start from a different set of assumptions than the others here do, and I think it all through from that different set of assumptions. I also do pray about it. Nobody else here has a reason to consider it from my different set of assumptions so they often don't even try to think about it from my point of view, they just keep throwing out the arguments based on their very different set of assumptions. I'm doing what the creationists all do but I do it independently of most of their arguments, think it through on my own.
And yet for some reason they don't get it. I see nothing evil or warped about them (EvC peanut gallery) apart from they get snarky occasionally. So why don't they get it?
Because they are absolutely committed to their different way of thinking about it and just don't bother to try to get into the other mindset.
One more question, if you would. Is there any group of people..perhaps at church or in your community...who have heard your presentation and given you compliments on it?
I don't even know anybody personally who gets into the scientific questions in relation to creationism. If I try to say anything about it I get a blank stare. And then there is the fact that I'm working independently as I say above, so that even sharing the same perspective with other creationists who come here doesn't happen.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 802 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 2:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 812 of 899 (820198)
09-17-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 811 by PaulK
09-17-2017 9:38 AM


physical impossibiity
What's physically impossible is the absurd idea that the GU is the root of a former mountain range that grew up and then eroded down to flatness before the strata started building above it. Or that strata would lay themselves down in a mounded form a mile deep. Or that the Colorado River cut the Grand Canyon. Or that a whole scenario of a "time period" could have existed where there now is only a vast flat slab of sedimentary rock, let alone dozens of them. Or that mammals evolved from reptiles. Or that mutations are the source of healthy alleles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 811 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2017 9:38 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by JonF, posted 09-17-2017 2:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 815 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2017 2:12 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 820 by edge, posted 09-17-2017 7:57 PM Faith has replied
 Message 830 by Percy, posted 09-18-2017 12:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 814 of 899 (820200)
09-17-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 813 by JonF
09-17-2017 2:10 PM


Re: physical impossibiity
Yeah I do foolishly rely on people to be able to grasp obvious points. My mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by JonF, posted 09-17-2017 2:10 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 817 by JonF, posted 09-17-2017 3:14 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 831 by Percy, posted 09-18-2017 12:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024